the HEART of the matter is israely occupation , subjugation ( and treating palestininas less than human beings for at least 2 generations ) and the zionist colonial project to create the old testament state . untill and unless the powerful entity is willing to give up occupation and WILLING to live as EQUALS side by side . nothing positive will happen . this latest so called road map is another affront to any thing decent / humane . is it not amazing that under all PMs , labor or likud they keep on building more and more settlements, ethnically cleanising parts of land of palestinians and still PROCLAIM mantle of PEACE.. americans better acknowledge thier role and responsibility as more than $ 100 B ( as in billions ) of our TAX $ have been handed over in last 25 yrs or so. not counted is a huge number in GAURANTEES which have always been FORGIVEN. and indirect costs which some have calculated as high as 1 T ( that is in trillions ). whole world sees , and rightly so , USA as behind/protector is israel. from litle i have read governor dean is as STRONG supporter of rightwing zionists as next guy.

Memory is a poor way of keeping records. I say this up front to allow myself some wiggle room in case an astute reader (and there are many, I'm sure,) decides to blindside me about my Sunday morning unwillingness to google because of laziness.)

So, my memory seems to be:

In 1948, the UN finally faced the moral issue of statehood for Israel and mandated the expired British Mandate be turned over to the diaspora of European Jews fleeing a continent all too willing to turn them over to the extermination camps. Immediately upon achieving statehood, Israel found itself surrounded by Arab countries that launched a war of extermination.

At that time, the British gave parts of Palestine to Arab leaders. There were "palestinian" (arab) refugees that were denied "Palestinian" citizenship.

Long story short, the Israeis won their war, fought the combined Arab armies to a standstill, and survived. That's when the terrorism attacks began as small armed groups started launching night attacks on kibutzim.

In 1967, faced with another publicly declared war of extermination, the Israelis struck first, and expanded the land under their control by creating buffer zones. Two laws came into effect here: the Law of Survival (get him before he gets you,) and the Law of Conquest (I took it from you fair and square. Now it's mine. Try and get it back.)

Then Israel got careless and snoozed and nearly lost the war of 1973. Hard work, good military training, a superb Reserve reinforcement system, and interior lines of communication enabled them to squeak out a victory. I dunno, maybe being "God's Chosen People" helped too.

In each of these conflicts Israel added a small bit of buffer zone to their boundaries, to allow a tripwire effect.

But, overall, my impression has been that Israel has reacted to the provocations and hatreds of the surrounding stats. I'm real clear who started the whole damn thing, and it wasn't the Israelis trying to live with pride and decency, like human beings are supposed to.

As Israel achieved more economic success, first turning land that had been arid desert for thousands of years into productive irrigated farmland, Arab resentment grew. Just because they didn't make the land work better they seem to not have wanted anyone else to do so.

And suddenly, people who had been denied statehood for over 60 years by their own cousins have suddenly become "oppressed" by another group that had the gumption to do something productive.

I dunno. Seems kind of crazy to me.

yes you have a really selective memory. a respected historian in ISRAEL ( wont see it here ) showed that there was also a DELIBERATE POLICY TO INSTAL FEAR BY SELECTED ACTS TO DRIVE ARABS OUT OF ISRAEL DURING 1948. he showed great courage to establish this against state/media/conventional wisdom . unfortunately he now also thinks too bad all of them were not DRICEN OUT . isarel in relationship to palestinians is pretty close to what germans were to jews in early 1930s. go figure jews acting like germans ! . thet are pretty close to barbaric ( sorry no other word comes to mind ) colonials in earlly-mid 19th century and earlly apartheid. so spare me all this noble/how they turned desert to green land / evil arabs nonsense.

Please help me find some support for your statement regarding the unnamed Israeli historian.

So far, I've drawn a blank tracking this down.

Can you give me a name? A date? Anything, please, to provide a clue?

here is a recent ( some what general rather than scolarly )article from a libertarian israeli

http://www.antiwar.com/hacohen/h123002.html

it is a starting point. i think it was benny morris but need to check it. all you need is to go to israeli media which is criticising the policies . US media has been plain aweful. a minority ( but growing ) there feels that the OCCUPATION IS IMMORAL AND AGAINST THEIR FAITH ( as opposed to right wing zionism which is an ideology to establish a state) . all i can say is go and read from people in israel. they have a lot more vigorous debate than what goes for our FREE OBJECTIVE MEDIA.

i can not change your belief system . all i can ask/suggest is to go and seek information/truth.

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3. Webb wins
   
4. Huh?
   
5. Bunnypants in Bagdad
   
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9. My letter to Countdown
   
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