Ummm, yeah... This falls well and truly beneath any 'hearts and minds' aspiration though - not that I'm telling you anything you don't already know. This is common sense, basic decency and honorable conduct gone AWOL like a motherfucker.

This is a small group of people bolstering an insurgent or riotous ne'er-do-well's case to murder or butcher any of the American servicemen and women they spot outside the prisons in retaliation for the abominable cowardice and cruelty of those who wear the same damned uniform in a place where humiliation, voltage, dogs and rancid cells keep American delinquents safe from the vengeance of Iraqis they mightily offend.

It's blatant inhumanity disguised as American integrity. It's utterly indefensible, illegal treatment of prisoners posing as a conscientious pursuit of critical information. It’s a grade-A betrayal on every conceivable level.

I swear, this is the kind of shit that makes me want to have every one of those bastards declared persona non grata until the end of time. I honestly think we should throw the civilians who took part in this crap on the mercy of an Iraqi court too, since they can't be constrained by our military laws. That'll teach them to play fast and loose with the basic dignity of our military and the nation it represents. Fuck ‘em.

Compare these actions with Kerry's testimony to the Senate following his return from Vietnam about certain conduct on the part of American troops. It is still early in Iraq, as compared to then in Vietnam, but it is a sign of real concern. Whether these few troops, reservists, lacked proper training or whether they are upset that they are in Iraq, this is a bad sign. This is no longer a popular war, if it really ever was, but here at home most of us are not being subjected, at least as yet, to sacrifices. More and more Americans who had favored the war are having doubts now. But there may be serious problems if we precipitously exited Iraq. This monstrous situation was created by George W, whose primary concern now is the November election. There is no statesmanship in Washington, D.C.

With all due respect, Shag from Brookline, would you please explain how George W Bush is responsible for this? If you want to bring in Kerry and Vietnam, it was Kerry, not Bush, who confessed to committing atrocities in Vietnam. Why not stick to the topic -- which is sickening enough -- without blaming every rotten deed and every malady on the face of the Earth on George Bush. I would hate to be so filled with hate for someone that I had to invect it into every sentence I uttered. Now is the time to close ranks, not give the terrorists more to use against America "LOOK! SEE! ALL THE AMERICANS BLAME THEIR EVIL LEADER BUSH! WE MUST PUNISH THEM AGAIN FOR NOT JOINING WITH US NOW AND STARTING AN UPRISING TO THROW HIM OUT BY FORCE!"

We suffered insults and injuries when we returned from Vietnam because Kerry and his VVAW liars and posers claimed EVERYBODY was committing atrocities 24/7/365 -- can you imagine what will happen in the way of payback by the locals aided by the terrorists to those serving in Iraq because of this ISOLATED AND ABERRANT situation. Expect John Kerry and the rest of the peacenik apologists to trumpet it to the stars and try to cut and run like he did in Vietnam. Some folks never learn that you don't defeat your enemy by running away from confrontations and setbacks, and you sure don't win by eating your own young. Punish every stinking one of these CRIMINALS, but don't tar every honorable serviceman and woman with the same brush, like John effin Kerry and his "Band of Bums" did, or they will get the same reception we did, and Kerry will help defeat us in Iraq just like he and Jane Fonda and the VVAW did in Vietnam.

....geeeeeze

How is Dubya responsible for this?

He started this war, that's how.

when you start a war, you're responsible. probably too deep for you to figure it out. dananger, my ass.

I'm glad Dananger posted what s/he did. It shows that some people will not make the obvious connection between the person who started this unnecessary war of choice and all the tragedy that will fall out from it. Kerry needs to explain, as Clark did, that as a combat veteran he will not rush Americans into a war that doesn't need to be fought because he has learned that there will always be atrocities in war time. BushCo either didn't know or didn't care - because he's never served in any capacity that would bring him that insight. He's a danger to our military above and beyond the dangers they face every day.

When GWB threw the Geneva Convention out the window he opened the door to this kind of activity. First Gitmo, now abusing Iraqis on their own land. God help us when they begin taking American prisoners in earnest.

dananger, my ass.

ditto

Ropening a front in a war that was expanded by an unprovoked attack on the United States is not "starting a war". In case you forgot, the first Gulf War halted with a ceasefire based on Iraq complying with a two-digit list of U.N. "resolutions". Saddam Hussein didn't comply, so the ceasefire became null and void, and hostilities resumed. As usual, when the U.N. needs someone to fight their fight, they depend on the U.S., even when most of the Security Council and the General Assembly hate us and do everything they can to impede us. In spite of what John Kerry says, the United States really doesn't need permission from the U.N. or anyone else to defend itself.

...two more in the "for the terrorists" column who have already forgotten about the attack on 9/11/2001 by fanatical Muslim terrorists who belonged to the same "Band of Brothers" as Saddam Hussein, Osama bin Laden, Jacque Shill-for-Iraq, Vladimir Puttin-more-oil-money-in-the-bank, Kofi anyone? and the U.N. "food for oil money in Swiss banks" cartel, and all the other apeasers helping "the cause".

...There is no need to get personal. I wouldn't "danager your ass" with a ten-foot pole or two five-foot Hungarians -- even if you took off your hat so I could get a better shot at it.

...Hey, merle, if that was a lame, backhanded insult questioning my service or whether I was ever stationed at Da Nang, how many nights did you spend in "Gunfighter Village" or in the main compound or anywhere else in the vicinity? It wasn't all like the TV show "China Beach". My DD-214 is posted at the American War Library, is yours?

...back on topic, so when will John Kerry and his "Band of Bums" sign up this bunch of perverts for the VVAW Iraq Auxiliary?

Word is out that mercs were involved in the interrogations. War crimes, anyone? Take the bastards to the Hague.

Well Dananger, seems you stirred up some controversy here with your rather unpopular opinions. I cycled through Da Nang several times in my wanderings in country but never really got to know anyone who was stationed there. I thought you had some neat clubs there, but I'm glad I wasn't stationed there. Purely a personal view.

I had some thoughts about your statements, some of which might be accurate, and others of which most certainly are NOT, and are supported by much public documentation.

But what caught my eye was your comment about the "American War Library" which I have to admit I've never heard of. I may be speaking for some of my brothers (and sisters) who are regulars here when I ask you in a polite manner to provide the URL for this here thing.

And in an equally polite, and entirely non-confrontational manner, I'll ask you to provide us with information regarding how to view your DD214. You brought up the topic, so we're now curious about it.

Strict rules of golf, and all.

Aren't our soldiers supposedly trained to know lawful from unlawful orders? Is there some reason they're acting like the frigging SS? These pictures are all over the Middle East - so much for hearts and minds.

I'm having a hard time believing ANY U.S. Army officer didn't know that the Geneva Convention bans mistreatment and public humiliation of POWs.

And since when do American enlisted personnel take orders directly from "private contractors"?? The media -- and Congress -- need to be on this like stink on shit.

What really gets us about this is the pictures that were shown on the news, with all these people grinning and smiling next to these guys they're humiliating like it's Miller Time or something.

Frankly, we know this trips off Godwin's Law, but the only other time we've seen anything like that is in some of the pictures Germans themselves took of some of their Einsatzgruppen activities, guys smiling the same way with their buddies ... with piles of dead Jews and Roma behind them awaiting burial.

They were forbidden from taking these pictures and took them anyway, and many of them were used as evidence at war-crimes trials.

Let us all hope and pray this is isolated and aberrant. Before the war, we had been worried about some sort of My Lai/Lidice type of incident if there was something like a major terror attack back home (we still are, actually, but thankfully that has not happened yet). But this sort of thing didn't come up in our imagination (Cynically, one could say it figures that this unit was from Long Island ... were some of them Mepham HS football players at one time? But that's really not relevant)

And Bush, if he remembers anything from his officer training (we doubt it) should at least show some sign of leadership and say firmly, publicly and unambiguously that this is not behavior we expect of American soldiers and that it will not in any way shape or form be tolerated. And say that he, as President of the United States and the one ultimately responsible, apologizes to the people of Iraq.

There would be nothing political about this. It is just good leadership. We know that a lot of the men and women in the field in Iraq have a much higher opinion of Bush than we do. Sending a message down from the very top concerning this can only be a good thing for all of us.

Well Dananger, seems you stirred up some controversy here with your rather unpopular opinions.

I agree with Lurch. I'd also like to add that it is not your service we question . . . it is your intelligence.

Lurch, I would be happy to provide the link. I found it through a link to a site where anyone who has lost -- or maybe thrown away medals (John Kerry, call your office) -- can have them replaced. I'm not at my home computer, so I don't have the email I got from them confirming receipt of my DD-214, but if you click on my screen name (it is a link to my Memorial website) or copy and paste the url below, scroll down a bit and you should find the link. It looks like a gold band and says "In Recognition". Go to that site, and you should find the info and forms to complete either getting medals replaced or posting your DD-214. In order to view records beyond name, rank, and a few other items, you have to subscribe to their service. Anyone who needs more help, scroll down to the "Contact" button on my site and give me at least an email address where I can send you what I have to help you. You can even download some sort of FTP software to go directly to the American War Library site -- I guess that is to save dial up time. I won't misuse your email address, by the way. I will only use it to help you find the site and get the info you need or reply to you if you send me other emails.

My Vietnam vet memorial website:
http://www.opaobie.com/promisekept.html

Hope this helps, and my handicap was 7.5 when I checked it just now (go to
http://www.ghin.com/lookup/ ) if you want to verify it. Enter 4669650

...hmmm? You support John Kerry and question my intelligence? What have I posted to draw that evaluation? Last time it was checked, my IQ was above 140, I have a degree in physics, I have an MBA, I have an Airline Transport Pilot License and a Flight Engineer Certificate, and I have a good job.

Post specifics, and I'll try to address them, but I thought the topic was the "John Kerry and the VVAW" type behavior going on in Iraq.

Actually the topic was the criminal actions of the American's guarding the Iraqi prisoners and their apparent subserviant position to the mercenaries contracted by the United States government.

BTW the word intelligence has more than one meaning. Perhaps I should have said I questioned your G2.

OK, Bush has condemned this, to some credit.

Thanks, Lowell, ...sorry to have been "spring loaded" to the "misinterpret-your-meaning-about-'intelligence'-position".

Could you point out the errors in my G2?

I took the time to go home and access my computer so I could post the information you asked about. This is the URL to the American War Library site where you can register and a lot more. Enjoy.

The American War Library
The World's Oldest and Largest
Online Public Access
Military/Veteran/Military Family Member
Registry

http://www.amervets.com/warlib46.htm

...back on topic, maybe the events in Iraq that are being discussed in this string will help everyone understand why the damage that John Kerry and his band of liars, posers, deserters, Communist sympathizers, Communists, and outright America-haters did to the 2.5 million honorable Vietnam vets has consequences. Kerry and his ilk tried to convince the American people that such action was commonplace. It wasn't. When it was discovered, it was dealt with. We can only wait and see what the reaction to the current situation is and how it is dealt with, but now is the time for America to close ranks with those serving honorably in Iraq and Afghanistan and throughout the world while demanding swift and just investigation and prosecution of these aberrants.

Could you point out the errors in my G2? Dananger.

Ropening a front in a war that was expanded by an unprovoked attack on the United States is not "starting a war". Dananger

Name one Iraqi that participated in the 9/11 tragety.

I would hate to be so filled with hate for someone that I had to invect it into every sentence I uttered.

...back on topic, maybe the events in Iraq that are being discussed in this string will help everyone understand why the damage that John Kerry and . . . ad naseum. Danager

Then you go on to say, ...back on topic, so when will John Kerry and his "Band of Bums" sign up this bunch of perverts for the VVAW Iraq Auxiliary?

Talk about hate and invecture!

These stories coming out of that prison in Iraq, but seemingly there is something to them. Article 32 investigations have begun, which is like the civilian equivalent of a Grand Jury. Six service men and women are already facing courts and a total of 17 are facing some charges including a Brigadier General. JoFish

The topic here is the atrocities committed by Americans against Iraqi prisoners captured, not Kerry's war record. You have tried to hijack the subject of Jo's post and misdirect it to the political arena.

In addition I think a mind is a terrible thing to waste. Obviously you are wasting yours. Why don't we just cut you in half and we'd have two Dumbyas.

I see no references to virulent remarks so I must just conclude that they are YOUR opinions. We all know about OPINIONS, they are like assholes, every body has one. In some cases, like yours, they have two. One behind you and the other in Washington. This being the case you cannot shit here because your asshole is in Washington. Now why don't you gather up your opinions and move on. I don't think there is anyone here who wants to hear anything you have to say.

Meanwhile we can really get back on topic. How can we allow our troops to commit these atrocities on captured enemy soldiers and expect anyone in the world community to still respect us.

http://www.humanities.mq.edu.au/Ockham/y6703.html

"A Timarchy is a military aristocracy, ambitious of Honour (time in Greek), like Sparta. The ideal city might decay into a timocracy by dissension among the Guardians, if some of them sought private property and wanted to reduce the other classes to slavery; they would neglect education and distrust intelligence. The corresponding 'timarchic' individual is competitive, arrogant, dictatorial, harsh to slaves, respectful to those above him, ambitious for promotion -- an 'authoritarian' personality."

Wow, some terrible news. The Mercs ordering our soldiers? WTF? Invest in Halliburton-torture women for profit! KBR -(Killin' Bitch Repudlicans?).

Rumsfeld's favorite video- Mercs Gone Wild-Baghdad '04 edition.
Where there's smoke there is a fire.

Name one Iraqi that participated in the 9/11 tragety [sic]. Saddam Hussein. There were a lot of participants besides the ones who flew the airplanes. The list is much longer, but you only asked for one.

Jo has raised a worthwhile topic. You have a valid point in that, to the uninitiated, my posts appear to be off topic. However, I haven't hijacked anything. I don't hate Kerry, I don't blame him for every problem on Earth as the Bush-haters do Bush, I simply sounded the alarm about him so this generation won't let him do to them what he did to his own -- mine. Look for root causes if you want to understand a problem and find a solution. It is precisely because of the seeds planted 30+ years ago by John Kerry that soldiers would even think about engaging in such conduct as is being disclosed and that America is not united against the world-wide terrorists and Leftists say we deserve what has happened to us. Patriotism is now looked on as jingoism,. Hatred for the military is already gaining momentum. Americans who once would have quit school and enlisted by the thousands now burn flags, blame America for everything, and attack the very people and institutions who gave them the right to do so -- just like they did when John Kerry and his "Band of Bums" led the effort to undermind the Vietnam war. The media and the useful idiots on the Left provide higher quality enemy propaganda than the terrorists could buy -- including the play this will get while ignoring the widespread atrocities committed by the terrorists or the thousands of noble deeds performed by our honorable men and women in harms way. Ted Kennedy and John Kerry are leading the attack on the Administration -- not because of principle -- but purely for political gains. Expect them to exploit this to the detriment of both this nation and the security of our troops. Maybe some of the frustration of seeing themselves portrayed in a constant negative light by both the media and "respected" leaders of the Democrat party while having to restrain themselves to a double standard not observed by the enemy had some influence on a group of marginalized GIs. That's the excuse Kerry would offer if he were testifying before the Senate the way he did in 1971, and before it was over, they would be heroes to the Left for "bucking the system". That makes it germaine to the topic, but I agree that the point has been made, and repeating it is counter productive. We are heading down the same slippery slope we followed to political defeat in Vietnam, and it is led by the same mindset -- and many of the same people. Look for "many more" of these incidents to "come to light" in the not-too-distant-future.

If you can't see this site inundated with virulent remarks about Bush, you might consider having a window installed in your naval. The rest of your specious, ad hominem insults can be disregarded out of hand for what they are: the desperate act of one on the losing side of an issue.

To answer your one salient question, actions are already underway to deal with the culprits, but nothing we can do will satisfy the terrorists, so we need to make sure justice is served and expect payback from our enemies -- as if they needed another excuse. The only way we can expect the rest of the world to respect us is to conduct ourselves honorably -- but considering the audience in Europe, it would be like throwing pearls before swine.

...somehow my screen name didn't post above.

"Name one Iraqi that participated in the 9/11 tragety [sic]. Saddam Hussein."

Got proof?

...yes.

...and so do you if you open your eyes and look at it. You won't find it here, though.

I am posting this off-topic answer only because I was asked for proof, but since you asked, here is only one of hundreds of reports available at your local library or whereever you care to look for news archives.

Monday, Dec. 22, 2003 10:45 a.m. EST

Second 9/11 Hijacker Tied to Abu Nidal, Iraq

When the London Telegraph reported last week that newly uncovered documents link 9/11 ringleader Mohamed Atta to Iraq-based Palestinian terrorist Abu Nidal, it wasn't the first time one of the 9/11 hijackers had been reported to have such ties.

In a development that adds evidence to the case that Iraq played a direct role in the worst attack ever on the U.S., reports show that Ziad Jarrah - who piloted the plane that crashed in Pennsylvania after passengers had discovered they were on a suicide mission - also had ties to Nidal.

Like Atta, Jarrah traveled to Hamburg, Germany, where three al-Qaeda operatives plotted their attack. The other member of the Hamburg cell was Marwan al Shehhi, who drove his plane into the World Trade Center's South Tower. Jarrah's assigned target: the White House.

"A constant figure in Jarrah's life in Germany was his great-uncle, Assem Omar Jarrah," reported the Wall Street Journal in August 2002. "According to the German magazine, Der Spiegel, Assem Jarrah worked for a long time as an informer for the Stasi, the East German secret service, while maintaining connections to [Abu] Nidal's terror group."

The Journal's Asla Aydintasbas - the only U.S.-based reporter to explore the Nidal-9/11 link in any depth - reported that the Palestinian terror kingpin spent much of his terrorism career as a hired hand, often in service to Iraq or Syria.

Just days before Aydintasbas' report, Nidal had been found dead in Baghdad of multiple gunshot wounds; his demise ruled a suicide by Saddam's security forces.

Der Spiegel reporter Gunther Latsch told Aydintasbas that Ziad Jarrah was "very close" to his great-Uncle Assem, the Abu Nidal operative: "He was the one who picked him up at the airport when [Ziad] first came to Germany. The uncle paid for his apartment. He really took care of him."

Then, just two weeks before the 9/11 attacks, Uncle Assem disappeared, after living in Germany for 18 years. The 9/11 hijacker relative has not been spotted since.

Even before the 9/11 attacks, U.S. intelligence feared Abu Nidal would play a role in what they warned at the time was a growing terror alliance between Saddam and bin Laden.

In 1999, after Saddam Hussein offered Osama bin Laden asylum in Iraq, Vincent Cannistaro - the one-time head of counterterrorism operations at the CIA - told the Knight Ridder news service: "It's clear the Iraqis would like to have bin Laden in Iraq. And the Iraqis have all the technological elements, the tradecraft bin Laden lacks, and they have Abu Nidal."

Just hours before Saddam was captured last week, the London Telegraph reported that a July 2001 memo written by Iraqi intelligence chief Tahir Jalil Habbush al-Tikriti showed that Ziad Jarrah's partner, Mohamed Atta, had successfully completed a "work program" at a base in Baghdad run by Abu Nidal.

Let me get off topic. Wednesday's Boston Globe comic section included Aaron McGruder's "THE BOONDOCKS" which well describes George Bush. In the first block, our hero says: "What's problematic is not that the President is staggeringly dim-witted..." and in the second block: "But that the press knows he's staggeringly dim-witted and everyone just pretends that he's not ..." and in the third and final block: "It's like the presidency has become the special olympics and everyone wants to give him an award just for trying." I assume that someone with an IQ of 150 doesn't need someone to interpret this for him. By the way, the Bush Administration gave up on Iraqi connections to 9/11. Alas, as demonstrated by recent polls over 50% of those polled still believed there was such a connection, which means that these people do not believe the Bush Administration. As they say in France, quelle fromage!

Excellent! Your counter to the London Telegraph expose is a Leftist cartoonist taking bogus cheap shots at Bush and Method 1 from the John Kerry/Bill Clinton handbook of Leadership: make decisions based on polls, but of course there is no invective seen in that.

I have a number of disagreements with Bush, but I know better than to fall into the trap of thinking he is ignorant. So far it appears that the Democrat jugernaut is stuck on a two-lane road climbing a mountainside behind a Republican semi-tractor-trailer with a sign on it that reads, "I may be slow, but I'm ahead of you."

As they say in Texas, "Gotcha!"

Now, how about showing Jo the courtesy of staying on topic. Fair enough? It's a situation worthy of our collective efforts to tackle.

Yikes. I hate to feed a thread-jacking troll, but suuurre, DaNanger, the Telegraph has noooo perceivable rightwing biases.

The rest of the conscious world has agreed that the Abu Nidal story is complete and utter bullshit. Like 100% of the other Al Qaeda/Iraq "evidence" you brainwashed types like to spew. Christ, don't you know how to tell when Cheney's lying? You know, his lips are moving? (Nice standing O for Kerry at Fulton today, by the way. Made Cheney look like the insane partisan hack he is.)

If the Telegraph's "evidence" actually was, ya think that some other news outlet in the world would have picked up? It only would have been the biggest story of the year. Damn liberal bias! They'll shoot themselves in the foot to besmirch Dear Cult Leader Bush.

You claim to have an IQ above 140? Like most people who crow about their IQs (here in Missouri we got a name for them: "assholes") you sure got some faulty thinking going on there, chief!

Take your bitter, partisan, Kerry-hatred and hit the fucking bricks, REMF. Take the worst president ever with you.

Donald Rumsfeld just admitted to Chris Matthews on Hardball that Saddam Hussein and his government had nothing to do with 9-11. The President made a similar statement some weeks ago. Sorry if that wilts certain warhawk hardons- but that's the way it goes.

As far as the torture goes, unfortunately this is NOT an isolated incident. The Brits are investigating several such cases among their own. This is going to make things a million times worse...how can you shriek about "torture chambers" and "rape rooms" when your own people are perpetrating the same sort of thing?

What a shame.

"...and so do you if you open your eyes and look at it."

Uh-huh. Looks like my 'leftist-slanted' eyes won't open quite wide enough. As others have already pointed out, even the Bush administration has given up on that little piece of horse puckey.

...hmmm. First, Bush and Cheney and Rumsfeld are the dumbest, crookedest liars who ever walked, and now you want to take their word based on an interview on "Hardball" or mumbled to the press? And you keep making cracks about my intelligence?

Maybe the mainstream press doesn't cover the news as well as it should unless it benefits their agenda. It would seem a poll taken in Spain might tilt toward believing there is a connection between Iraq and Al Qaeda, since Al Qaeda effected a "regime change" in Spain with only 15 backpack bombs and then crowed to the world that they did it because of Spain's involvement in Iraq. Why would they care what happens to Iraq if they aren't connected somehow? They didn't even mention Afghanistan, their alma mater and home field. I doubt Saddam Hussein and Osama bin Laden would hold a joint news conference and announce a pact. If more had been reported and more effort had been made before the 9/11 attacks on us, maybe none of the behavior at Abu Ghraib Prison would have taken place because our troops wouldn't have to be there now -- the "U.N." troops would have gone there years ago. Even Bush waited until after he had attacked them in Afghanistan and had exhausted all diplomatic efforts to resolve the "Iraq crisis" through the "ewe" Inn.

The Clinton View of Iraq-al Qaeda Ties
From the December 29, 2003 / January 5, 2004 issue: Connecting the dots in 1998, but not in 2003.
by Stephen F. Hayes

ARE AL QAEDA'S links to Saddam Hussein's Iraq just a fantasy of the Bush administration? Hardly. The Clinton administration also warned the American public about those ties and defended its response to al Qaeda terror by citing an Iraqi connection....

The U.S. government's secret memo detailing cooperation between Saddam Hussein and Osama bin Laden

OSAMA BIN LADEN and Saddam Hussein had an operational relationship from the early 1990s to 2003 that involved training in explosives and weapons of mass destruction, logistical support for terrorist attacks, al Qaeda training camps and safe haven in Iraq, and Iraqi financial support for al Qaeda--perhaps even for Mohamed Atta--....

Most of the CNN and MSNBC and New York Times and Washington Post et. al. articles highlight the doubt about any connection, and one even quotes the "twin pillars of truth" Saddam Hussein and Osama bin Laden denying any connection. I guess that pretty well closes the case, eh?

There's plenty of blame to go around, and right now, the objective is to win the war and do it within the rules, and that means getting to the bottom of the criminal acts by coalition troops guarding prisoners and then taking swift and appropriate action to punish the guilty. As I pointed out earlier, true to form just as during the Vietnam war reporting of "atrocities" committed by the evil imperialistic Americans, more incidents are hitting the news which will serve to further undermind our national resolve to fight the terrorists under the guise of "just reporting the news" -- the latest fiends are the Brittish.

So Rumsfeld contradicts DaNanger's source as well...

No, actually that is a validation. A previous poster says Rumsfeld admitted to Chris Matthews on Hardball that Saddam Hussein and his government had nothing to do with 9-11 and Bush had made a similar statement some weeks before. I was merely pointing out that, since the general consensus of posters here is that Rumsfeld and Bush and Cheney always lie, and if Rumsfeld said there was no connection and Bush echoed that position -- that automatically must be assumed to be a lie --, so the logic employed by most here would force them to conclude that there actually MUST BE a connection.

Now do you understand the rules for posting here?

...no charge.

This could still be a good thread if it were allowed to return to the topic.

So many points to go over, so little space.
Dananger:
1) My DD214 is filed where it's supposed to be filed: at the County Courthouse of my domicile at the time of ETS. It's also filed in St Louis. Why would I want to have it filed on some commercial webpage? And why would I have to download software from that webpage for this dubious honor?

2)My request was for information about your 214, since you brandished it all around. That was what the strict rules of golf comment referred to.

3) I'm not familiar with the "amervets." Who are they? Where are they headquartered? Is there a Board of Governors? Board of Directors? Any Emeritus Directors? When were they founded? How are they capitalized?

4) Re: "John Kerry and his band of liars, posers, deserters, Communist sympathizers, Communists, and outright America-haters," Now, they've apparently been extremely careful to carefully examine and investigate anyone who attempted to join their ranks. And any claim of qualifying service was examined under a microscope. I think you're wrong about all that. As for your statement that their claims of numerous, almost universal war crimes committed by US military in RVN is all lies (I'm paraphrasing here,)

my friend, you are wrong. And that's all I'm going to say on this topic in a public forum without advice of counsel.

Since you are now a pilot, we can assume you were in the Air Force at Da Nang? Being a grunt, and an EM I never got to go to the O Club, but I did hear a few stories about the dance shows there.

What is truly absolutely wipe-out disturbing is these people KNEW BETTER.

I googled the 800th MP Battalion - these were PROFESSIONALS!! This unit is made of of cops, firefighters and prison guards who do that work as civilians!! It's their JOB!

That "the Mercs made us do it" business is bullshit. These people KNOW that when you are in that kind of position you DO NOT DO THAT STUFF.

And that guy Frederickson, the professional prison guard from Virginia, who's saying he had no training on the Geneva Convention is a DAMN LIAR!! It's been a few years since I was in the service, but everybody got training on the Geneva Convention when I was in, and people I know whose service is far more recent than mine say that they got training on this stuff EVERY YEAR.

I'm a professional writer who uses words for my job, and I cannot begin to put words around the total disgust I feel that these scum wore the same uniform and served the same country I did. What TRAITORS to their fellow soldiers they are! This is so much worse than My Lai - that was committed by ignoramuses, these people knew their duty and refused it.

I hope they spend 20 years in a small windowless cell at Fort Leavenworth, with the walls "wallpapered" with the photographs, so they remember why they're there.

If you'd like to find out what an educated, westernized, Iraqi woman who was happy when we overthrew Saddam last year thinks about this, go read this blog. I guarantee this is the most "civilized" response you'll hear from over there.

http://riverbendblog.blogspot.com/

TC

Hey Dananger:

I was one of those "aberrants" in VVAW you talk about.

Back before you likely knew there *was* a war in Vietnam, I was a participant in the LIE that sent you there, the alleged "Tonkin Gulf Incident," which was total bullshit.

Perhaps you ought to get a copy of the Pentagon Papers for your American War Library. Better yet, you ought to READ it.

I'm proudly voting for John Kerry over that worthless piece of Texas Armadillo shit, whose closest call to "service" was "all day pool volleyball games with ambitious secretaries." Why don't you ask that flying flunkout to show you his Form 5 and prove he ever did anything???

Tom Cleaver
PROUD veteran of the war and the war against the war

Uh rah, TC.

I made a swing of the Pro-U.S. Iraqi bloggers. They're suspiciously silent today. Riverbend, one of the mildest, is spitting bullets-pissed about this prison BS.

I'm terrified that this crap is going to lead to a Tet-style over-run, country-wide.

I hope to hell I'm wrong.

Iraq, another Pipedream
"There is nothing new about this. It seemed to take forever for American leaders to realize that they were lost in a pipe dream in Vietnam. A key government spokesman during a crucial period of that conflict was Barry Zorthian, the public information officer for American forces in Vietnam from 1964 to 1968. In a book published last year, "Patriots: The Vietnam War Remembered From All Sides," Mr. Zorthian is quoted as saying:

"We probably could have gotten the deal we ended up with in 1973 as early as 1969. And between 1969 and 1972 we almost doubled our losses. It's easy to second-guess but I've never been convinced that those last 25,000 casualties were justified."

http://www.nytimes.com/2004/04/30/opinion/30HERB.html?ex=1398657600&en=e8bfad9252152923&ei=5007&partner=USERLAND

For some reason, reasonable attempts to enjoy spirited debate have become a food fight -- so let me see if I can clean the table. Maybe then those interested can add to the topic instead of tilting at windmills.

Lurch
1 & 2. And in an equally polite, and entirely non-confrontational manner, I'll ask you to provide us with information regarding how to view your DD214. You brought up the topic, so we're now curious about it. Remember asking that one? Were you just laying an ambush for me? I took it as an honest inquiry.

No, I didn't "bring up the topic", my service has been questioned several times; and I didn't "brandish it all around". I simply answered your question about how to view it, and now you complain about it? Did you want to have to go to the courthouse? I have a copy right here, too. The software is free, but nobody is forcing you to download it. I don't have to prove my service to anyone, and I still have all of my medals (John Kerry, call your office again). I still communicate with many of those I served with and family members of those we lost, including the mother of one of our 5 MIAs who were "written off" by John Kerry when he chaired the Senate Select Committee on POW/MIA affairs. John Kerry presented a speech before the Senate Foreign Relations Committee on April 22, 1971. That speech, written for him by Robert Kennedy's speech writer Adam Walinsky, created one of the best-known moments of his life, and it was given while he was involved in Vietnam Veterans Against the War. In November of that year, the VVAW voted down a plan to assassinate seven U.S. Senators who supported the Vietnam war. One of those senators was my senator, John Tower. John Kerry was at that meeting. Oddly, neither he nor anyone else reported the plot to the authorities. In that speech before the Senate, Kerry asked: "How do you ask a man to be the last man to die for a mistake?" History has shown that our involvement in the war was not a mistake and that the Communists were on the verge of collapse before the anti-war movement reinvigorated them to hold out. Read the memoirs of General Giap and the interview with Col. Bui Tin, who served on the general staff of North Vietnam's army, and received the unconditional surrender of South Vietnam on April 30, 1975. They praised John Kerry and the VVAW and Jane Fonda and the rest of the anti-war movement and credited them greatly for victory in Vietnam. We could have won. Nevertheless, my question in reply to his theatrics would be, "Senator Kerry, what do you say to a mother whose son you abandoned in Vietnam?"

Strict rules of golf, and all. I answered your wisecrack with a wisecrack. Get a sense of humor.

3. If you want information about the "amervets" site, read it at the site -- its posted -- or ask the webmaster at the site. Have you asked the same questions of any of the "I Love John Kerry and I Want to Carry Water for Him" sites?

4. No, my friend, you are wrong. Simply stating an "opinion" (see definition in a previous post) does not make it a fact. I can prove everything I allege about John Kerry and the "Vietnam Veterans Against the War". Take Al Hubbard, the "former" Executive Secretary of the organization. He claimed to have been an Air Force Captain wounded flying a transport into Da Nang. He was a Staff Sergeant never assigned to Vietnam who injured himself playing basketball. He was a liar, he was exposed on national TV, but he did grave damage to the reputations of honorable Vietnam veterans and to the war effort itself. His "testimony" was read into the Congressional record without challenge. One of the posers was so stupid he described watching shells that sounded like "a subway train pulling into Times Square" fired from the battleship USS Arizona! Some of them were outright "posers" who used the identies of actual vets and then "confessed" to "atrocities" in their names. The real vets were stunned when the Naval Investigative Service contacted them after the hearings to get more information and to have them sign afadavits attesting to their "confessions". You might pick up a copy of "Stolen Valor: How the Vietnam Generation Was Robbed of its Heroes and its History" by B.G. Burkett and "America in Vietnam" by Guenter Lewy. Would you like for me to arrange an interview for you with Jug Burkett? If you have some war crimes to "confess", I'm sure he would be happy to publish them in a sequel. If you want the proof indexed for you with audio and video tapes of John Kerry and the other liars lying before the United States Senate and on national TV and news articles of the period -- including the Communist papers -- visit www.WinterSoldier.com and see the proof for yourself. Take your time so you don't miss anything, and revisit it because more info is added almost daily.

Your last remark is misdirected if you are trying to impugn my honor by implying I was an elitist officer like John Kerry -- the rich woman's pet. Besides, the "good" shows were always at the NCO club, and you would know that if you had been there very long.

TC

Don't blame me for starting the Vietnam war. John Kennedy started the buildup, LBJ botched it (let's see, who was Prez when the "Gulf of Tonkin" thing happened?), and Congress caved to pressure from the antiwar movement and defunded it, leaving millions of Vietnamese and Cambodians to genocide, "reindoctrination" camps, and 30+ years of Hell. I simply completed my FULL year there (John Kerry, check your 4 month calendar).

I read the Pentagon Papers while I was over there.

...watch that last line; someone might ask you to post your DD-214 to prove it. You didn't happen to get on the cover of John Kerry's book, "The New Soldier" by any chance, did you?

Gobbler We WON at TET. Read something besides comic books if you want to learn the true history of the United States. The only "victory" the Communists gained was propaganda -- just like the terrorists are now through OUR media. History had better not repeat. If we lose this war through lack of resolve and lack of support or by screwups like mistreating prisoners and causing a world wide Jihad, there won't be a "next one" -- at least not for another thousand years.

Didn't the U.S. presence in Vietnam begin during an Eisenhower Admininistration? Didn't Richard Nixon's Administration have an involvement in Vietnam for several years (during which there were many casualties) after the anti-Vietnam War movement brought LBJ to his knees. Also, in the 1968 campaign didn't Nixon say he had a plan to end the Vietnam War? Why didn't Nixon's plan work, at least during his first term? Remember the escalation of the Vietnam War by Nixon (with Henry Kissinger's help) that carried through his 1972 campaign? Remember Nixon's entanglement with Watergate while this escalation was going on? Remember how the end of the War came about? Remember Nixon's disgraceful exit? I think some people have their right wing republican blinders on or are mistaking their blood pressure reading for their IQ. I'm just trying to fill in some of the historical gaps in the preceding hysterical commentary, but I can't fill the gap between his/her ears.

Well, DaNanger, my comic books say we lost 1,400 men during Tet. But we WON, so you REMFs could claim "success". Don't trip over the dead soldiers on your way to the stage to claim your trophy.

Mission accomplished. Bring 'em on. Whatever "phrase of the day" you warmongering cocksuckers use to excuse the waste of our military, during Nam or now.

Also, you call Kerry an "elitist" officer? How do you talk with so much shit in your mouth? Do you know one thing about riverine operations in '68? Swift boats were nothing but unarmored ambush magnets. They had a casualty rate of over 80%, for Christ's sake!

Is that an "elite" thing, volunteering to take a mission where you're sure to get your ass shot off? I'll never stop marveling at the awesome stupidity of the common rightwing blog troll.

Take your shrill, partisan Kerry hatred and hit the fucking bricks, pal. Go collect your GOP Teamleader tote bag and pat yourself on your back for defending the "man", Bush, who wastes our men for lies, but was too good to serve himself when he had the chance.

Wow! This is great, the reinforcements finally arrived. DaNanger is such a waste of bandwidth. Thank God we have a page down button. Like is idol GWB the best part of him dribbled down his momma leg.

For some reason, DaNanger still fails to focus upon Nixon and Vietnam. Things were bad when Nixon came into office in 1969, but they got worse, despite his promise of a plan that would end the conflict. Nixon escalated during his first term, staying the course. He was easily reelected by portraying McGovern as weak on foreign affairs. Now we have Bush Jr. staying the course. Bush Jr. may be following the Nixon paradigm for a second term. If Bush Jr. wins this Fall, will he stay the course despite the carnage and financial costs? Bush Jr. couldn't stay the course during his Air National Guard days. His conservative support is starting to fray at the edges. Perhaps DaNanger can come to Bush Jr.'s rescue like B.D. in Doonesbury and turn things around in Iraq. With all of the history on Vietnam establishing the errors on the part of U.S. Presidents, both Republican and Democrat, we now have DaNanger's revisionist version. Sy Hersh, David Halberstam, et al, reported on the events that support that Vietnam was a foreign policy disaster. LBJ promised us guns and butter and it did not work. Bush Jr. offers us guns, butter and big tax cuts for his wealthy contributors, going LBJ one better. Bush has guts, staying the course, putting young Americans' asses on the line. But we all know what he did back in the late 1960s/early 1970s, when his ass might have been on the line: he stayed the course at Harvard Business School.

I propose a contest: consider "DaNanger" as a "JUMBLE" puzzle. Let's see what revisions (or derisions) we can come up with.

I love when rightwingers get all shocked and pious when their idiotic trolling prompts strong language. All of sudden they're looking for a clear spot on the fainting couch. Fine, Princess, I'll keep it clean, so don't soil your petticoats.

Sorry. You served very honorably. I imagine it was terrifying flying over those SAM-infested valleys. At least you had some countermeasures.

Not much countermeasures to butter-soft aluminum when somebody's blasting a .50 at you from 50 ft. away. The Swift Boat patrols repeatedly went up creeks and canals which were too narrow to turn around and they went in groups of three. So, no way to back out of the ambush.

Swift Boat patrols on creeks and canals were made for one reason only: body count. That's what Kerry volunteered into at a time when the war was blowing up, literally. I guess that means nothing for you, because the sin of speaking out against the war trumps it all. What a petty, petty man you are.

Even more so when you trot out a pathetic "spitting on a vet" anecdote. That's all you got? An anecdote?

"a group of Kerry's 'Vietnam Veterans against the War' scumbags" you say. Was Kerry really there, DaNanger?

Can't you you deranged partisans at least make up anecdotes with Kerry physically present?

Got any evidence that Kerry supported that type of behavior? No. From a reputable news source? No.

Do you have any shame in how far you will go to slander a fellow vet for political partisanship?

...looks like "Attack of the ankle-biters" is in full swing. If you want to continue to trash this topic, fine with me, but Jo may just clip it like some of the other ones that imploded for similar reasons. Do any of you know how to debate a topic?

Shag,
So far, I have addressed each question with a documented answer, and then someone adds to the original question and asks why I didn't address that, too. Now you want to have Nixon explained, but if you had read any of my previous posts or the links I included, you would already know the answer. Short answer to Nixon: the anti-war effort, led by John Kerry and Jane Fonda and the VVAW emasculated his administration and the country's will to fight -- just like they are beginning to do now. Congress cut the funding ["I voted FOR the $87 Billion, before I voted against it", quoting John Kerry about this war. How many wars does he want to help us lose?] and even the support for the Vietnamese just to defend themselves after we left. They still held out for quite a while with NO support. Nixon changed the philosophy from a war of atrition to the Vietnamination policy -- win the hearts and minds of the people -- and it was working and we were winning when I left in 1973, in spite of the cutting of support and withdrawing of our troops. In terms you might understand, it was "Victory interruptus".

Nobody has to "portray" McGovern as weak on anything, he did it every time he opened his mouth. Walter Cronkite and other "journalists" were there, they saw what was going on, and they LIED to the American people... and you want to tout history revisionists' versions of the war as your rebuttal to the words of those who fought it -- even those on the OTHER SIDE and documented their own defeat before the anti-war effort delivered them victory? The foreign policy disaster was completed by the anti-war crowd, not by the policy itself.

Domino theory will be asked about next. It happened, and if you don't believe it, go visit the area. Amoeba-like, communist Vietnam is slowly neo-colonizing Laos and Cambodia by the traditional Vietnamese expansionism termed Don Dien, first by occupying territory with troops, then having their families come in to settle the new territory, then putting the troops into civilian clothes to become "ready reservists" and replacing them with new troops for further expansion.

What about the current war on terror? Many of the old VVAW crowd are showing up at the flag-burnings and "peace" marches -- they still look just as pathetic and shame the rags of uniforms they bulge out of. This really is becoming tiresome.

Ras_Nesta

The "countermeasures" I had consisted of a 12 gauge flare pistol held out the window and fired to try to draw heat-seeking SA-7 missiles far enough away to survive the blast. I flew an unarmed, unprotected, unarmored, EC-47. What difference does that make to the topic being discussed, or do you just like to take cheap shots instead of debating the issues? We had little chance to escape missiles or radar-controlled AAA (or the 37 MM guns like Jane Fonda posed in) at 85 KIAS 4500 feet AGL, but we flew the missions any way because lives on the ground depended on the intel we gathered. The only ones who left before the end of the full year tour were the dead. I have never disrespected the job the marines or the navy or the army or our allies did, so why do you disrespect mine? My disagreement with John Kerry is for what he did after he returned, not what he did while he was there for 4 months. I'll leave that to those who have a particular issue to discuss with him. You don't have to explain to me how the boat patrols operated, I know, and the next time I communicate with the "pathetic" disabled vet you impugned, I'll pass on your compliments, and I'll ask him if John Kerry was there. Even if he wasn't there in body, he most certainly was in spirit -- he was their leader and spokesman. Kerry is an opportunist and a hypocrite. He wants to attract the anti-war crowd with his "Olympic Medal Toss", but he wasn't principled enough to toss his own. Did he not support the cause? Was he just using those pathetic misguided fools to launch his political career? Yes. But he also wants to "pal around" with his "Band of Brothers", actual veterans, and strut out his medals. He wanted OTHERS to toss theirs so he could stand with them and benefit from that PR, but he wanted to keep his own to be able to show them later. Is he a hypocrite? Yes. Follow him to your own detriment.

For the umpteenth time, I have posted a link to where you can hear Kerry in his own voice lying to the Senate and on TV and a library of other proof. If you're too partisan to learn the truth about him, that's your own business.

...what was the topic here, anyway?

So every thing was going fine in Vietnam until DanAnger left Vietnam in 1973. Perhaps if he had stayed, the U.S. might have won. I guess the movie "THE FOG OF WAR" has to be revised to accommodate DanAnger's version. I guess Robert McNamara can withdraw his analyses of his and his cohorts' errors. I guess Sy Hirsh and David Halberstam have to revise their publications. DanAnger should be in Hollywood yelling "Get me rewrite!" and re-releasing Dr. Strangelove, this time with you know whom riding the bomb.

No, everything wasn't "going fine", but we were winning. The anti-war efforts of John Kerry, Jane Fonda, and the VVAW began to take effect, as I said, and we lost a war we could have won. The "documentary" about McNamara only proves the point I made earlier that Liberal Democrats don't know how to run a war. Cite some passages from "Sy Hirsh and David Halberstam" to support your point, but this really isn't the place since that isn't the topic of this string.

...back on point
The terrorists [or those who hate America or those who protest the war for reasons other than principle] couldn't have devised a better plan to derail the war on terror than what is being reported, although the British seem to have uncovered errors in some of the photos concerning their people. Uniforms, weapons, and vehicles in some of the photos are not of those assigned in Iraq, and they indicate those photos were not even taken in Iraq and appear to have been doctored. Love that Photo Shop software. Could part of this be a very cleverly executed plot designed to have exactly the effect it is having? As someone pointed out on (ABC?, not sure which network), "a lot of what you see in those pics is about what you see in some of the latest MTV videos and some of the concerts". That may be an exaggeration, but it may reveal something about the nature of those involved in the verified accounts. Look for a new "John Kerry" to step forward soon and claim that EVERYBODY in the American military is doing this on a daily basis on direct orders from "the government" -- they'll try to pin it on Bush, Cheney, and Rumsfeld later. You can't expect to get the whole enchilada in one sitting.

Who was Commander in Chief beginning in January 1969 through the end of the Vietnam War? According to DanAnger, the War was turning around in 1973 and then Dan (is it okay to be informal Mr. Anger?) left Vietnam. Where did the buck stop during the period January 1969 to the end in 1974? Sure, McNamara made mistakes, LBJ made mistakes, serious ones. But Nixon had a plan to end the Vietnam War. Or was it a plan for reelection in 1972? LBJ tried guns and butter and it didn't work. Nixon tried guns and butter and undermining democratic principles. Was Nixon paranoid in bringing about the Watergate scandal? History suggests that he was. Maybe he was paranoid about Vietnam as well. I'm not supporting LBJ and McNamara, nor any and all Democrats. But you are carrying water for any and all conservative Republicans, including Nixon who almost destroyed our democracy, with anger against any Democrat. Democrats can attack Democrats when they are wrong. But apparently Republicans like you are too thin skinned to admonish Republicans who do wrong. When Calley and others were exposed during Vietnam (and after) for their atrocities, the public reacted for the obvious reasons that the public is reacting now. This current War is Bush Jr.'s War. He broke it and now we have to fix it; but it may not be fixable or too costly both in personnel and the fisc. The torture incidents did not just occur a week or so ago. It's been several months. There is a lengthy report on the incidents, which Gen. Myers has not even bothered to read, perhaps emulating Bush Jr.'s reading habits or sticking his head in the sand. Mr. Anger, you seem to be in this same ostrich ranch. Let's see how the investigation plays out and determines who knew what and when.

By the way, the domino theory in Southeast Asia did not result after Vietnam. Now we have Bush Jr.'s democratic domino theory for the Middle East; but what if Iraq does not become nor wish to become a democracy? The best laid plans of mice and Bush Jr. MBAs oft go astray. But then again, did Bush Jr. actually have a plan? And Mr. Anger, if you think Bush Jr. had a plan, provide a link to it; or might there just be a missing link with Bush Jr.?

My God. I'm not going to sit here and let you twist my words to fit your insane bullshit, DaNanger!

You said "...the next time I communicate with the "pathetic" disabled vet you impugned, I'll pass on your compliments..."

You are a completely unhinged lying cocksucker of the first order. My EXACT statement was: "[How petty you are] Even more so when you trot out a pathetic 'spitting on a vet' anecdote. That's all you got? An anecdote?"

Someone with a 140+ IQ would know that the "pathetic" in my statement is modifying "andecdote" not "vet". Is there anything that's out of bounds in your crusade to smear Kerry for speaking out against the war?

BTW, I do apologize for diminishing your service. I respect you for your service. I loathe you for being a partisan-poisoned loon who will do anything to get The Worst President Ever elected.

Of course, after calling me out on it, you immediately trot out "4 months" to insult Kerry's service. Including offshore time in that total?

Whatever.

Ras_Nesta,

...hmmm. From my first post, almost everyone here has insulted me and questioned my "intelligence", my integrity, my service, my sources, and generally acted like children, and now you "fein indignance" because I mistakenly interpreted your previous insult? The misread was unintentional, and I am glad you pointed out the error. I would hate to equate you with the VVAW types who attacked Ben. Please accept my apology. If you had bothered to read any of my posts or visit the links I posted, you would know that's not "all I got" and wouldn't have had to ask, and the entire misunderstanding could have been avoided. I've posted facts and sources and links to websites where you can hear with your own ears and see with your own eyes John Kerry and the "VVAW" in their own voices and images as well as news articles from that period through today, but no one seems interested in that "uncomfortable" truth. Now, who are the "partisan loons"? Intellectual honesty would force you and the other Bush-haters to admit that GW Bush is not THE worst President ever -- or did I misinterpret that insult, too? Did you actually mean John Kerry? I could easily be persuaded to agree with you if he is elected and if that was how you meant it.

I'm not on a crusade of any kind, I am not a Bush partisan or a Kerry hater, and I am not out to smear Kerry or anyone else. Don't interpret rebuttal to misstatements about Bush or other Administration officials as support for them; honest debate should be just that: honest. I am trying to UNsmear the 2.5 million honorable Vietnam vets Kerry and the phoney "VVAW" slandered and who have lived under the cloud of a lie for over 30 years because Kerry "spoke out" LIES against them and at the same time prevent him and his "Band of Bums" and the current crop of antiwar apeasers from doing it again to the current generation of military men and women serving this nation in time of war. The topic of this string is quite compatible with the repeat of exactly what Kerry and the VVAW did during the Vietnam war and especially after Kerry returned. Don't be surprised to see "EVERYBODY in the military is committing atrocities every day everywhere in Iraq" to become their new mantra. Even some of the acts depicted in the photos, such as the "electric wires attached...", is exactly what Kerry and the VVAW "alleged" happened in Vietnam, yet no one has ever signed a sworn statement confessing to actually doing that or having witnessed it. Is it "coincidence" that this particular "atrocity" is being committed in the "discovered" photos? This whole situation smells like a setup, so let's all see how it plays out.

Loathe me for the right reason if you feel the need to loathe me. If the fact that John Kerry requested a deferral to "spend a year studying French in Paris" and served only 4 months in combat irritates you, take it up with him. I didn't bother to include the time while he was still on active duty and the time he still had committed to the Reserves during which he transported anti-war activists to meetings, either. Count up his service time any way you see fit. Swift Boat Vietnam veterans will hold a press conference in Washington Tuesday, May 6, to announce a letter signed by hundreds of Swift Boat veterans that John Kerry is "unfit to be commander-in-chief." The signatures include every commanding officer John Kerry had in Vietnam. Swift Boat Veterans for Truth have 19 of 23 officers who served with Kerry. They have every commanding officer he ever had in Vietnam. They all signed a letter that says he is unfit to be commander-in-chief.

Maybe if everyone would spend more time addressing the topic and less time insulting me, this could still be an interesting discussion, but Jo has already initiated another version of it, so blast away here in the romper room.

In fairness to Shag from Brookline,

...I owe you one last set of answers. I'll number the answers in the order you asked the questions (I think I numbered them correctly, but I didn't worry too much about the numbering).

1. Richard M. Nixon was Commander in Chief beginning in January 1969 through the end of the Vietnam War.
2. No, according to Gen. Vo Nguyen Giap and Col. Bui Tin, we were winning.
3. The buck stopped at Congress. Actually, Congress stopped the buck, and doomed millions of Vietnamese and Laotians and Cambodians to prison, poverty, torture, "re-education", genocide, and 30+ years of Hell.
4. Nixon was handed a lighted stick of dynamite, placed in a quicksand pit, and then blamed when it exploded in his hand, just like Bill Clinton did to GW Bush. John Kennedy and LBJ and the Liberal Democrats did just about everything wrong that could be done in Vietnam, and LBJ simply quit -- typical of Liberal Democrats when they botch things beyond repair. Nixon tried to change the philosophy of the war from "attrition" to "Vietnamization", but it never had a chance, thanks to the anti-war tidal wave. George Washington couldn't have turned things around after resolve and support for the war had been destroyed by Jane Fonda, John Kerry, and the rest of the anti-war movement, aided by the useful idiots in the media. The only "plan" Nixon was allowed to execute was to withdraw from Vietnam; he was reelected in 1972, so maybe it worked.
5. In spite of its historic importance, Watergate was a third-rate botched cover-up of a third-rate botched burglary, but please don't start a side discussion on Watergate. It sickened me, too. History has also shown that it pales in comparison to some of the acts the Clinton Administration got away with, the most damaging was erecting a "wall of separation" of intelligence sharing between the FBI and the CIA in order to protect Clinton from inquiries into his selling us out to the Chinese in exchange for campaign contributions. Sadly, it led to allowing terrorists to attack us several times, including on September 11, 2001, after Clinton had exited the stage -- temporarily. You would have to ask those involved along with Nixon's psychyatrist (if he had one) about any paranoia.

Comments: Pointing out facts or rebutting misstatements about Republicans is not "carrying their water"...same goes for the claim I am "attacking Democrats". Point out some of the good that LBJ did while he served as Commander in Chief if you think I erred. I don't hate Democrats. Sadly, the leadership of the Democrat Party today aren't actually Democrats. I have a number of friends who are Democrats, including my former U.S. Representative, who appointed my son to the Air Force Academy and always asked him to play taps at the VFW cemetary on Veterans Day.

The fact that the public and the military authorities reacted with outrage to documented atrocities in Vietnam validates the position that such conduct was rare and was not tolerated by either the American people or the military, putting the lie to Kerry's claim that it was "commonplace" and being conducted as part of "policy" with the full knowledge and consent of commanders at all levels. It was then, and it is today, rare and unacceptable to our culture, both in and out of the military. Neither you nor I know whether Gen. Myers or any other authorities have read the reports of abuse of prisoners in Iraq or have previous knowledge of others, but if the media and all the other detractors would allow them the opportunity to do their jobs, there is a fair chance they will get to the bottom of the issue. For obvious reasons, they don't make everything they know public.

Would you like to explain to the Vietnamese, the Laotians, and the Cambodians -- and to more and more of the Thais as it continues to creep into Thailand -- how the domino theory didn't really work?

6. Your question presupposes the Iraqis don't want some form of freedom and self-rule. It is based on a false premise, so it needs no answer. The real question is, what form will it take, and I don't have enough data to reach a supportable conclusion. Anyone can speculate, but the potential answers all seem to have scared the radical Muslims enough to decide to pull out all the stops to try to derail the process.

7. Bush has outlined a plan, it calls for turning over rule to the temporary ruling council on June 1, and elections in the future, but beyond that, I am not privy to the classified part. I suppose it is explained in more detail on the GOP website, but I don't know what the link is.

...hope I didn't miss anything.

...back on topic, the current situation concerning alleged mistreatment and abuse of prisoners can't help but cause serious damage to both the ongoing war to win the hearts and minds of the Iraqi people and to the morale and safety of American and British troops. The enemy couldn't have devised a better plan to cripple us if they tried...maybe they did. Could some of the "guards" actually be "Johnny-Walker-Lindh" types who have infiltrated our side?

Dan, I now appreciate that you are not a hater of Democrats. Why some of your best friends are .... (Where have I heard that before?)

To spare others who may be reading the running commentary over the past several days, let me just focus upon item 7 in your latest efforts to respond. You mention Bush Jr.'s plan of a turn-over to the Iraqis on June 1 (or is it July 1?). This is a recent plan. Let's go back to March of last year when Bush Jr. started this War of Choice. Now, he surely had a plan for invading, conquering and liberating Iraq. One would assume that with his training as a Harvard MBA his plan included the next steps. Questions have been raised, even by conservatives, that the post-Mission Accomplished part of the plan was flawed and had to be changed. But do we even know what the original plan was? Is there a link to it? For a period of one year since Mission Accomplished, there has been zigging and zagging. Now the most recent zig and zag is the turnover on July 1st. Per chance was this date selected in anticipation of November elections? Even after this recent zig and zag was announced, events on the ground have changed so that now there is to be Re-baathification. (I don't think this has to do with cleanliness.) But there is still confusion as to the leader of this reconstituted group. Add to this the torture incidents. Add to this the Likuds' rebuff of Sharon's plans that Bush Jr. had blessed. Is the United States of America better off today than it was in the Fall of 2000? Meantime, General Odum has started a movement that has gathered steam that we should pull out of Iraq. (I find it hard to agree with this, at this time. But then, my ass is not on the line.) Put them all together and what do they spell (as the old song said): A MOTHER OF A QUAGMIRE.

Mr. Anger, if there is a wall of separation, it's between your ears.

Well, Shag, it seems the name "Anger" belongs to you, not me. I also have a number of Muslim friends. Some people actually get along with each other in spite of differences in politics or religion or .... You should try it some time. The most vile and shrill hate speech I have ever seen is coming from "hate-Bush" and "hate-America" websites and some of the top leadership of the Democrat party. Some of the disgusting comments posted about Pat Tillman reveal a lot about the people behind those sites -- pretty sizable network of groups, too.

The transition BEGINS on June 1 according to the Iraqi "ambassador" I heard on the news, but it will take a lot longer than a month to complete -- if it ever occurs. July 1 is the official date stated publicly for the transitional government to assume control even though our military will still be there for a long time, so July 1 is fine with me.

Your points are valid, I have no argument with most of them except the general demeaning tone. The situation is dynamic, the enemy is not cooperating, cooperation from the Iraqi population and successes and accomplishments by the coalition are not being reported accurately, so only time will tell how much success is achieved. For security reasons, the complete answers to most of the questions you raised are not necessarily being shared with the general public -- and the enemy, since they could also see the plan -- so don't look for answers before they are announced. Lack of public disclosure does not signify lack of existence or the presence of chaos. Life is not like sitcoms. One of the best strategies ever employed was termed "rope-a-dope". It seems to be working as employed by Bush vs. the leadership of the Democrat party, and it may be the one he is using against the terrorists. ...just an observation. Was FDR subjected to this level of second guessing and demands to reveal his every move during World War II? Same for Marshall and McArthur for their reconstruction plans after the war.

Apeasers have been trying to get us to pull out since before we resumed hostilities that were halted by a ceasefire after the first Gulf War (...you do realize the "invasion" of Iraq was simply that, don't you?) As usual, the United States has to be the one to enforce "resolutions" generated by the "Ewe Inn" because they are too weak and corrupt to do it themsleves.

The more disunity the enemy sees in the coalition, the more it can become a quagmire. There is no negotiation with terrorists -- they simply want to destroy us -- so there is only one course to follow: total victory.

...Cya

So your new code phrase is "Some of my best friends are Muslims ...." DanAnger, it is not "demeaning" what I say but rather "the meaning" of what I say that counts. FDR took a lot of crap from the then right wing conservatives but the public understood that WW II was not a war of choice. How do I know? I was in my teens at the time reading the press reports daily. The U.S. was attacked and had to respond, not only against Japan but the rest of the then real Axis. There was a draft. There was sacrifice. There were real enemies. There were battle lines. Bush Jr. chose war, perhaps as a reflection of his Oedipus Complex. He got it into his skull that he had to show his bones. But alas, as is the case with most cheerleading bullies, his bones are not on the line and they never had been. He hides behind skirts (his Mommy, now Condi and Karen), as did Dick Cheney with his final draft deferment by first raising a skirt. Are you proud that Bush Jr. and Cheney by ducking putting their asses on the line in the days of Vietnam thus became available to do what they have done to us the past 3+ years? Did you put your ass on the line in Vietnam to accommodate these elites with influence? I think it's time that you came out of the closet - are you one of Andrew Sullivan's acolytes for Bush Jr.? Is your version of total victory total annihilation, if necessary? I'm back to vizualizing you in a remake of "Dr. Strangelove" on bomb-back just before the credits roll.

DaNanger, apology accepted. Again, I apologize for seeming to critique your service. If I do it again, kick my ass.

I checked out "He-man Kerry-haters Club" you linked to. Not very impressive.

Started by O'Neil and Admiral Hoffmann, huh? Lessee, O'Neil has had a Captain Queeg and the White Whale level of obsession for Kerry for 30+ years, and Hoffmann was one of those bodycount-obsessed types who sent the swiftboats up the creeks and canals. Color me unimpressed.

So, if Kerry was such a horrible soldier, why did all those Kerry-haters give him such glowing marks back in the day? Why did he win the Silver Star, Bronze Star with V, three awards of the Purple Heart, Combat Action Ribbon, Navy Presidential Unit Citation, Navy Unit Commendation Ribbon, National Defense Service Medal, Vietnam Service Medal, and the Vietnam Campaign Medal?

I know that you are obsessed with Kerry's over-the-top denunciation of the hell that he witnessed. Did you see Kerry on MTP? He doesn't seem real comfortable with some of the things that he said back then.

Like I keep trying to say, all of us say and do things when we're in our 20s and full of ourselves. When you add in a politician's ego and probable PTSD from getting your ass shot off on a daily basis, the results could be out there.

Are you going to apply the same standard to early 70's Bush that you are using against early 70's Kerry? As someone that went, does it irk you that admitted supporters like Bush and Cheney worked the system like champs and got left home?

Hell, when they took away all the student deferments except "married with children", Lynne had a kid EXACTLY 9 months later.

This horrible scandal makes one ponder anew the meaning of "Republican" Guard in Iraq.

Ras_Nesta,

I'm happy the storm clouds are gone. Our misunderstanding-driven "friendly fire" exchange was such a counterproductive endeavor with so many legitimate targets on which to focus our attention. Swift Boat Veterans for Truth is brand new and was created when a number of former swift boaters decided to come forward because they believe, based on firsthand knowledge of Kerry and his past, that he is unfit to be commander-in-chief. You now know as much about it and them as I do. Trying to return to the topic of this string while addressing your points, with the specter of the past "claims of systemic abuse and atrocities" from the Vietnam war now being raised alongside the current investigation into abuse of prisoners in Iraq, I thought it was newsworthy that so many former contemporary peers have been driven to come forward after all this time. They may be seeing a repeat of the way the anti-war movement glombed onto such stories in the early 70s and destroyed our resolve and support for that war, and how that combined to negatively affected the outcome. They didn't care about Kerry's elections to the Senate, but they do care enough about the possibility of his becoming Commander-in-Chief to "out" his sordid past. As you mentioned, a couple of them have been heard from in the distant past; however, the group consists of both Democrats and Republicans -- and maybe Independents --, and they aren't seasoned political types. O'Neill forced Kerry to admit to some of his lies on the Dick Cavett show in a debate in the 70s but did not opt for public life himself and went to school to become a lawyer. I had never heard of any of the others until recently. From what I have seen so far, they seem to be acting on personal belief and principle. Time will tell. The site with all the information you need is WinterSoldier.com .

I can only speculate on why Kerry was awarded medals. He put himself in for the three Purple Hearts, the unit citations were awarded to the units to which he belonged, and if he was in the unit when the award was presented, he is allowed to wear it. I have a number of those myself, some with -- as my grandson would say --, "Oatmeal Clusters". Some of the other awards -- like the "alive in '65" service medal -- were awarded to just about everyone. The fact that he was a protege of the Kennedys helped puff his ratings, and there is controversary about his other medals. The doctor who treated him for his first Purple Heart wound has issued a statement saying he did not believe the tiny sliver he removed from his arm merited a decoration and was not a bullet fragment, as Kerry claimed (one of several versions of how he was injured). Here's a link if you want to read his statement. Kerry Purple Heart Doc Speaks Out

Nevertheless, I'll leave the debate about that to others who care. My disagreement with him is about what he did after he returned from Vietnam, -- which is now even more germane to the topic of this string if he becomes President -- which brings me to your second point. Raising consciousness for an issue about which I feel very strongly is not being obsessed in my view, although it certainly could appear that way. John Kerry's own logic has become very convoluted and confusing in the face of the half-dozen versions he has offered to explain his "youthful indiscretions". His testimony was not about what he witnessed (he had to recant that part when pressed), it was about "widespread, systemic abuse and atrocities condoned at all levels of command as normal operations on a daily basis" that others told him they had witnessed and committed with the full knowledge and consent of higher authority -- which turned out to be all lies. We may soon see similar claims about the abuse of prisoners in Iraq. The technique worked to scuttle the Vietnam war, so why not try it today? Many claims were preposterous -- some of which I have posted above --, and Kerry even admitted to committing atrocities himself (he has backpeddaled and tried to recant that part when pressed recently), but no one with whom he ever served will attest to participating in atrocities, so unless he did so on solo missions with no one else on the boat, he lied about that, too. In typical Kerry flip-flop fashion, he wants to be hailed as a war hero at the same time he wants to be hailed as a whistleblower and anti-war activist who exposed atrocities he says he also committed and for which he was awarded medals, which he pretended to throw back. Since he didn't actually throw his medals back but wanted others to think he did and to throw theirs back, he was an unprincipled hypocrite and went AWOL from the anti-war cause. If he believed he received medals for committing atrocities, he should have refused them. If the medals were earned for valor, why should others not be allowed to say the same about theirs? Which was it: valor or war crimes? Was he the only person who served honorably and everyone else who served was a war criminal? To hear his testimony, that would be the only possible conclusion. Rubbish. Bottom line, he sold out his fellow veterans while they were still on the battlefield, and he swindled the anti-war activists to launch his political career. Sadly, there are still thousands of good, principled people in both camps who think he supported them and their cause. His behaviour is, in a word, "unstable", and that alone renders him unfit for the highest office in the land.

That brings me to your third point. Neither John Kerry nor GW Bush nor Dick Cheney nor any of the millions of others of draft age nor I, for that matter, had any say in whether we would be assigned duty in Vietnam unless we volunteered, and even that was no guarantee. Only about 2.5 million people ever served in Vietnam. Many of us did volunteer. Of course one could petition to spend a year in Paris studying French as John Forbes Kerry did, being rich and a prodigy of John F. Kennedy. If one received 3 Purple Hearts, he could ask to come home, even after just 3 or 4 months, and even if the wounds didn't cost him any downtime, as John Kerry did. The only ways to guarantee we would not be assigned to Vietnam would be to desert or dodge the draft, like Bill Clinton and many of the "Vietnam Veterans Against the War", or petition for status change to "Conscientious Objector" prior to receiving orders or obtain one of the various deferrments, as Dick Cheney and millions of others did. During my 12 month tour (actually 366 days), more than half the pilots with whom I flew my 100+ missions in Vietnam were Reservists, like me, and Air Guardsmen. I often wondered how many names on the Vietnam Memorial Wall are of National Guardsmen and Reservists. One hundred and forty Medal of Honor recipients were in the National Guard. Six thousand seventy-seven members of the National Guard or Reserves died in Vietnam. John Kerry equated Guard duty with "draft dodging". Prior to assignment to Vietnam, I flew missions within Aerospace Defense Command throughout the USA and Canada in support of Air Guard units. Who knows, I may even have visited with GW Bush in the Day Room on one of my trips to the Alabama or Texas Guard units. I can't even remember who the Squadron Commander was, so please don't expect me to name everyone I ever served with (LOL). Their courage, professionalism, skill, and deportment were second to none. Are the "Happy Hooligans" still flying these days? The next time you fly on a commercial flight, chances are a Reservist or Guardsman will be at the controls. Being a wounded, decorated hero is not a license to return to the safety and comfort of the United States and promote the enemy's propaganda while your buddies are still on the battlefield or in the enemy's POW dungeons. Benedict Arnold was also a wounded "war hero" before he changed sides and gave aid and comfort to the enemy. The "chickenhawks", as some people are called nowdays, may not have had the courage to participate in the fight themselves, but at least they had the sense not to hinder those who did have the courage to fight in their places. History is full of them, and they still rank above the "chickensh**s" who cursed us when we returned and burned our flag and shot us from ambush beneath the cover of "dissent."

...this topic may yet survive, but the damage done to the honorable reputation of the American and British military -- and our image as principled and honorable people -- has been significant...and with so few involved. Spain was defeated with only 15 backpack bombs. A similar number of fools may have set back efforts for peace in the middle east for a decade.

Funny thing is, I thought officers put in for their men's medals, not the men themselves.

There was no possibility that Bush's "Champagne" unit, stuffed full of politico's sons and Dallas Cowboys was going to get sent to 'Nam. They weren't flying obsolete planes by accident.

As for "firsthand" knowledge of Kerry in Vietnam, I'll believe the on-the-scene glowing reports many of these same men gave Kerry in-country, then how they feel now that they're rich and partisan Republicans.

Also, I consider the 99.99% of the men who actually fought alongside Kerry more believable than a bunch of REMFs, especially since THEY were the ones who lionized him until he started saying things they didn't like.

Purple Hearts are authorized when supported by a card filled out by the medic or attending doctor or the mortuary unit. Undoubtedly, exceptions were made, including Kerry's first Purple Heart. The attending doctor for the first Purple Heart has made a public statement in the past few days saying the "wound" required only a bandaid, the tiny sliver he removed required no incision and no stitches and was not from a bullet fragment as Kerry told him, and it did not warrant an award. The doctor was told at least two conflicting versions of how it was caused. Kerry's version about incoming small arms fire, and the rest of the crew saying Kerry fired a grenade at a rock too close to shore and a piece of the shrapnel may have nicked him on the arm. I guess the doctor believed the crew, since the tiny fragment looked more like a burr from shrapnel from a grenade than from a bullet, especially when the rest of the crew and the crews of the other boats said they did not take incoming fire. That account also supports Kerry's chain of command's assessment of him as a "loose cannon".

Kerry can produce only two cards, and that is one reason the former Swift boat group has asked him to sign a Standard Form 180 to authorize the unedited release of all records, including medical records, from his files. As stated publicly by his Commanding Officer concerning the first Purple Heart, he was denied the award but somehow managed to get another commander to authorize it, and it was then placed in a pile for the first Commanding Officer to sign on his way out of that assignment, apparently hoping that in the confusion of the Commanding Officer leaving, he would not examine them closely. The plan worked. There was no medical card attached, but there was a large group of authorized awards, so it simply got overlooked and signed anyway. He said to this day he regrets that he didn't take more time checking each card or he would have found Kerry's and denied it again.

I attended the funerals of more than a few National Guard and Reserve friends who died as a result of the wounds they received in Vietnam. Many were F-101, F-102, and F-106 Air National Guard pilots prior to assignment to Vietnam. We even had F-104s over there. More than half the pilots I flew with in Vietnam were Air Guard and Reservists, as was I. Being in the Guard was no guarantee of avoiding Vietnam. Dodging the draft, like Bill Clinton did, was. College deferments were only good if you kept your grades up. ROTC flunkees were immediately placed on active duty as Privates or the equivalent in the other branches of service. You would be surprised at how many Guard and Reserve units were activated and how many Guard and Reserve pilots volunteered for assignment to Vietnam. The planes they flew in the Guard became obsolete more so because the mission became obsolete and because more and more Liberals were elected to Congress and cut the military budget. So did the AAA and missile sites around major cities, like Nike, etc. At any rate, nothing that Bush or Cheney or even Humpty Dumpty did interests me; they did not slander me and 2.5 million honorable veterans, promote the enemy's Communist propaganda, and prove invaluable to the enemy in destroying our national resolve and in helping us lose the war politically that we had won on the battlefield.

Kerry's "glowing reports" are fine with me -- let's take a look at all of them -- unedited. They are inflated most likely, just like mine and everyone else's who served during that period. They may still be inflating them. The full compliment of fitreps along with sworn testimony by his peers trumps selectively released "inflated fitreps", but that issue is for those who care about it to debate. As I have said, it is his dishonorable acts after returning from Vietnam that discredit him most. Let Kerry release all the records and explain the differences in what he says and what those he served with say. The group that came forward includes almost every person he served with, served over, and served under. They endorse NO presidential candidate, and they said if Kerry is not the Democrat nominee after the convention, they will go home. They differ on party affiliation, on abortion, on religion, on almost every other topic except one, and they are in full agreement on it: that John Kerry is unfit to serve as Commander-in-Chief. So far, out of nearly 250, about 6 or 7 simply didn't want to sign the letter and get involved, and 2 have come to Kerry's defense. Is that 99.99%?

You can disagree with them and even question their motives, but I believe you do the Swift boat sailors a great disservice calling them REMFs. They served on the front in the same unit Kerry did before he ever got there and long AFTER he "bugged out". It was their heroism that was responsible for the Unit Citations you mentioned above, and many were killed and others seriously wounded. Along with another crewmember, one officer was seriously wounded commanding a mission on Jan 29 that Kerry falsely claims HE commanded. It was because of the injuries to the other officer that Kerry was transferred to that boat to replace him. Above all, they didn't "bug out" on a technicality after 4 months. Some served multiple tours. Most of them never knew he had even been wounded, let alone three times. If anyone became a REMF, it was Kerry as he ran for the rear and home and then began to lie publicly and shamelessly about his fellow officers and seamen, including the very crewmembers he abandoned, to launch a political career -- NOT because of principle -- otherwise he really would have tossed his own medals instead of faking it so he could now display them in his Senatorial office. He deserted THEM, then he went AWOL, then he became an apologist for the VC and the North Vietnamese, and most despicably, he gave aid and comfort to the enemy to use against the POWs to force them to confess to crimes they had not committed. That is what is bringing 100,000 Vietnam veterans to Washington, D.C., in September of this year to expose Kerry for the hypocrite and traitor he is. He is unfit to be Commander-in-Chief.

...did I miss anything?

back on topic, other than humiliating the prisoners -- unless allegations of a few questionable deaths prove to be more than allegations -- what actual crimes have been determined to this point? As disgusting and humiliating as many of the photos are, I haven't seen anything like torture, maiming, etc., confirmed. Besides a PR disaster, is there really more smoke than fire in this situation?

Well my uncle was in swifts, drank himself to death upon his return home after years. Got his purple heart from waterskiing the Mekong, was single back then , said the visit to his Head Nurse was the best part of that experience.

Then again he didn't earn that medal did he? He only woke up screaming and sweating and his babies were learning to walk or crawl and he would about rip their rip their heads off before snapping to, if he could sleep at all. They didn't give medals for PTSD and vets wouldn't want one it would brand them past what they put up with internally...

His boys are in the service now, one is a a Ranger, a mountain climber by hobby, guess where he is at?

And the few times I had talked with him about those experiences, he spoke of some of the things he encountered. Having an army guy accompany to napalm caves full of snipers as the only way to be certain they were cleared out. Rules of engagement shoot first and the feeling that killing innocents brings up and having to forget about it to get through the same day.

It is ironic his boy now hunts snipers in caves in another part of Asia also.
Once in such talks shared Mr. Kerry was on the television, some of his younger days and words when he was speaking against the war. He agreed that Kerry was speaking on their behalf to see them home, and paid his dues to do so.

Was hoping his last day as he passed out went gently, memories of goods thoughts in closing. No screams or fire or gunshots or violence. Just the good things he almost gave up on in full but somehow survived to see, more from the outside looking in but supported by his family right or wrong until his dying breath and afterwards.

Kerry was his kind of sailor. He'll be my kind of President and make sure the grandson who looks just like him (he never saw) will grow up with a chance at a good job and education and a quality life with the liberties he was supposed to represent in another confused time. A chance to enjoy life and not come of age under fire.

He did not get to see his youngest grandchild Brady and how he looks just like him. The youngest of six. The Wes Clark site he is holding his grandson and looks the same, a head full of dark hair.Glad to see a survivor like him enjoy life. Another soldier who will probably be on the ticket and whose record is above reproach.

It is time to stop taking the bad feelings from that war, stop blaming Kerry for the things which happened in it- which he had no control over.
He did his part under fire that is as much as any soldier or sailor should be asked to do.

Most of the vets at this site can share a lot fo experiences the good or otherwise with you but siding with a person who has shown no support whatsoever of troops or their cause at any time is just holding back your chance to share this. I'm a civi, but there is a band of brothers here and/or their loved ones whose friendship and support are valued.

You're more so like them than I, blog on and support the cause in spirit. We'll bash Kerry if gets out of line, but he shows the ability to politic and find middle ground his learn curve leads one to conclude he'll tread wiseley. Stubbornness has gotten us nowhere in 3 years, Bush had to do no poltics he was spoonfed the job vs. Richards and the SCOTUS after that.

If nothing else ask of yourself why you served. Realize he volunteered for the fontline and passed up a cushy carrier job. You have more in common with Kerry than you have against him in this aspect. You answered the call.

DaNanger, those "Swift Boat Partisan Hacks for Lies" paraded on stage the other day weren't in the boat with Kerry, so what the fuck do they know about what kind of leader Kerry was? The largest number are REMFs.

Other than Kerry's glowing evaluations. Which you tie yourself into illogical rhetorical knots trying to diminish. There is NOTHING that you'll overlook to trash Kerry.

Why don't you examine the huge screw-ups in GW Bush's life with the same vigor? Grounded in the TANG. Drunk-n-drugged until 40. Ran 3 companies into the ground. Handed the University of Texas endowment over to the man who bought out his share of the Rangers. etc, etc, etc. Has gotten us into a 740+ dead soldier $200,000,000,000 nightmare of an elective war.

What makes Kerry's justified protest against a nightmare he personally lived 30 years ago more important than Bush's shortcomings, now and in the future?

The adult thing to do is finally hold GW Bush responsible for something and fire him in November.

By the way, I am making a "vote for the lesser evil" plea to you. I know that Kerry is insufferably ambitous and has the supersized ego of someone who would want to be President.

Still, he is light-years ahead of Bush, a man that has lead the definition of a sheltered, priviledged life. (Don't give me the "Kerry's rich!" BS. His mom was a Brahmin, but didn't have much money.)

Looking at his performance as President, it's easy to see why W's businesses failed. Look at how detached he was from the terror warnings in the summer of '01. He expected delagates to take care of everything, instead of taking the matter to hand. A true sign of an incompetent, manager or leader.