Sorry, comparing Rumsfeld with McNamara is just absurd.

The approach to Iraq and Vietnam are diametrically opposed, and anyone who would classify them as on or near "the same path" doesn't have the faintest clue.

And the Times' Herbert was burned for lying in the article you cite:

http://www.qando.net/details.aspx?Entry=1830

Vietnam is over, the 1960s are over. Not everything is Vietnam.
 

That's the most nit-picky objection I could have imagined. You should be ashamed, "RealWorld."

Obfuscating the real point behind what is essentially a "A-HA! But he was wearing BROWN SHOES!! And McNamara's were BLACK!" argument is not only a betrayal of good sense, it's a betrayal of history, logic and our duty to find a way out of this mess.

Rumsfield, Perle, Wolfowitz and the President himself were playing Candide to Ahmed Chalabi's Dr. Pangloss and waltzed into the haymaker that is the post-invasion insurgency. Ditto the people of South Viet Nam's resistance to the corrupt puppet government that was Diem and company.

You need to have a gander at Viet Nam: Year of the Pig before you so lightly dismiss Rumsfeld/McNamara comparisons. You'll find present-day corollaries to all of the key players from Viet Nam- Curtis LeMay, Mark Clark, McNamara, Diem, Ho Chi Minh- go and see, and stop sniping at these petty points that obscure the reality on the ground. You owe our young men and women that are dying in Iraq more than a cursory reading of the facts.

I mean, if you care at all about anything more than protecting President Bush and Co.'s sterling reputation.

I have to agree with RealWorld. McNamara believed in what he was doing, even though he was totally wrong in how he went about it. Rumsfeld is simply totally wrong in how he goes about his job, which is military frontman for the Bush family and friends' theft of billions of dollars.

The 80s are indeed over. It's just all about the money now, although the idealogy is a useful tool for controlling those like RealWorld and his buddies.

You leftists need to listen to "Real world". Vietnam was the "hayday" of the American stinky hippie left communist(viet-cong)movement and its over. The poisoning of the American press began back then with Walter Cronkite helping to fuel the deaths of thousands of American lives,much like the American left is doing today. Comparing Rummy to Mack and Iraq to vietnam is like comparing apples and oranges. The only similarity between Iraq and Vietnam is that the American left, just like in the 60's is aiding and abetting our enemy.

You idiots need to follow the money. Tell us where $8.8 BILLION of Iraqi funds went with no trace, give us the detailed report, and then we'll bother giving any credence to anything you have to say.

Stop listening to your right-wing friends, and wake the fuck up. Do you REALLY think Bush and his cronies give a damn about you?

And I'm no leftist, moron. I'm a libertarian.

Rummy is doing Cheney's will - I see Cheney as our real president. Iraq and Viet Nam have many similarities, and many differences. I still believe that we belong, in force, along the Afghan/Pakistani border - and that we have no business in Iraq.
The country, the world, were deliberately lied to by our president, in order to invade Iraq. That is a fact. Our credibility, our honor as a country, took a big hit because of our government's lies. That is another fact.
Democratic Veteran, I am with you all the way. The right-wing apologists are simply wrong, and the American people are increasingly seeing the truth for themselves - check out the polls, folks.
Dem Vet - keep up the good work. Fellow readers - make sure you examine facts and actualities, not just the words we are being fed.

Speaking of Rummy, they sure have the lid on that loose cannon lately. Ya never hear about Rummy or even Cheney anymore. Rove must be reading some terrible numbers.

You just keep telling yourself that, Jay. I'd say that Kissinger and Nixon's sabotage of the Paris Peace Talks was a betrayal of America's troops in Viet Nam that rivals ANYTHING Abbie Hoffman ever did. 10,000 to 12,000 US Soldiers died between the day that Kissinger took a got all high-handed and destroyed the negotiations in Paris (1968) and the day that the US withdrew from the country (1975). You want a story of true perfidy, look no further than the Big K. In the meantime, don't confuse a principled opposition to an unjust war with treason. You'll be just as wrong when the war in Iraq is finally over as poor, stupid, self-deluding McNamara is now.

How old are you, son? I have this feeling that the reason you don't know what you're talking about is that you weren't around for it. It feels to me like you're just blabbing some bullshit you heard on AM radio.

You are behind the curve. If a.m. radio gets your leftwing girly-man panties all tangled up just wait and see what the internet does.

Gonna have to see your ID, son.

You're cracking me up with your 'leftist-girly-man' rap, kid.

You're clearly the one that's behind the curve on this internets thing.

And another thing: it's "period-space-space, then start a new sentence." Ask your typing teacher after PE class.

Gonna have to see your ID, son.

You're cracking me up with your 'leftist-girly-man' rap, kid.

You're clearly the one that's behind the curve on this internets thing.

And another thing: it's "period-space-space, then start a new sentence." Ask your typing teacher after PE class.

LOL.

Demvet-
your database just threw me a wicked curveball!

"Unable to process this request- please doublepost..."

RealWorld and Jay really have their heads up their asses. It is obvious they have little to no knowledge of either Vietnam or Iraq. Rumsfeld and McNamara were cut from the same cloth. They both thought they could conduct a war on the cheap and look where its gotten us. As far as comparing Vietnam to Iraq, we were in Vietnam several years before our casualty figures reached what Iraq is today. True, when I was in the Republic, we were losing nearly 500 a week. This is what is in store for us if we don't do something about the leadership. Personally I hope Jay and RealWorld are draft age, because mark my words, there is a draft coming down. A little time in country might just open up their eyes . . . or close them permanently.

Those who fail to learn the lessons of history are doomed to repeat them. Or something like that. It's getting clearer and clearer that Rummy and the rest of the loonies in Preznit Bush's cabinet haven't yet learned the lessons Vietnam taught us. Unfortunately, it's not their sons, daughters, brothers, or sisters dying in this war.

Personally, I'd like to see Jay and RealWorld discharged from the 101st Fighting Keyboarders and join up with the real deal. I hear the Marines are looking for a few warm bodies. The few good men thing expired when they missed recruiting quotas for the first time since 1995.

Semper FI, Jo. Keep takin' it to `em!

So, Jay, fighting in Vietnam was a great idea, and why the hell were all those "lefties" agitating to get out?

Maybe you should write to Rummy and see if you can convince him to re-invade Vietnam, and *this* time we'll do it right!

Why, pulling out our troops would lead to the inevitable triumph of communism in southeast asia, dominos falling all the way to Australia, and ...

Oh, that stuff didn't happen did it?

Well, maybe things would have been so much BETTER if they US stayed and fought on in Vietnam! Sure, there'd have been thousands and thousands of US dead, maybe tens or hundreds of thousands of vietnamese dead, but look what we'd have gained!

Why, Vietnam would be free of Chinese communist influence, with a vibrant (sorta capitalist) economy and increasing tourism and trade with the rest of the ... oh wait.

Conservitards that think the Vietnam war was a good idea have their heads so far up their asses that they think they see a glint of light at the end of the tunnel.

Grow a brain, Jay. You still have a few years of puberty left, so try not to waste them.

So, Jay, fighting in Vietnam was a great idea, and why the hell were all those "lefties" agitating to get out?

Maybe you should write to Rummy and see if you can convince him to re-invade Vietnam, and *this* time we'll do it right!

Why, pulling out our troops would lead to the inevitable triumph of communism in southeast asia, dominos falling all the way to Australia, and ...

Oh, that stuff didn't happen did it?

Well, maybe things would have been so much BETTER if they US stayed and fought on in Vietnam! Sure, there'd have been thousands and thousands of US dead, maybe tens or hundreds of thousands of vietnamese dead, but look what we'd have gained!

Why, Vietnam would be free of Chinese communist influence, with a vibrant (sorta capitalist) economy and increasing tourism and trade with the rest of the ... oh wait.

Conservitards that think the Vietnam war was a good idea have their heads so far up their asses that they think they see a glint of light at the end of the tunnel.

Grow a brain, Jay. You still have a few years of puberty left, so try not to waste them.

O.K. fellas, a couple of us in here are having some problems posting comments. We only have to click the "post" icon once guys.

Oh no!

Thread gestapo. GFY, Jay.

That's short for Go Fuck Yourself.

Semper FI

Don't worry about the last comment, Jay. Some people on this blog have to make themselves feel better by writing things like "go fuck yourself" because they have nothing else to say and they can't stand anyone disagreeing with them. You're certainly entitled to your opinion, and good for you for expressing it. It's just sad that grown men have to say things like "go fuck yourself" to somebody who disagrees with their viewpoints.
I'm sure sure that somebody will tell me to go fuck myself after reading this. Don't let it bother you.

Regular Reader heap bigum tough guy, hiding behind keyboard with bag of cheetos.

Oh. Brother.

Threatening to kick someone's ass who disagrees with you now, huh Barndog? Almost as cool as telling somebody who you don't know to go fuck themselves because they disagree with you. But, I guess you know everything. You have all of the answers and, thus, anybody who disagrees with you is not only wrong, but deserves a verbal tongue lashing or an ass kicking. And you accuse Republicans of intolerance. Comical - but unfortunately very typical of liberals today.

Projecting a little, are we?

Jeebus all hopped up on meth. You really need some psychological help, if you truly believe what you just stated in that
paragraph above.

Let me requalify that; you are BEYOND psychological help, if you truly believe your statement.

I'm not projecting anything, pal. You're the intolerant stud telling somebody to go fuck himself, simply because he's expressing his opinion - which happens not to coincide with your beliefs. So, explain to me how I am the one projecting something. I'm not the one telling somebody to go fuck himself, because I KNOW that I don't know everything. You, on the other hand, seem supremely confident that you have all of the answers. I'm the one who needs psychological help? Oh, no wait, I'm BEYOND the help of psychology. You, I guess, on the other hand, believe that throwing around the fact that you were a Marine gives you some God-given right to tell people with opposing views to go fuck themselves. Seems to me that you're the one with problems. Maybe some anger management issues...who knows.

By the way, your apparent belief that you can stereotype every conservative as a Jesus freak is only going to continue your glorious party's complete downward spiral. I can promise you that you go to church more than I do. Please continue to believe that every single person who voted for Bush did so because we're all Jesus freaks. It'll make it SO much easier - and better - whipping your asses again in 2008.

I still AM a Marine, and will be until I die.

You need to change the record, dickweed. It skips in the same spot all the time. That fucking monotone would drive a reasonable man batshit insane too.

It's no wonder you vacant stare right wingers are all the same. Like a rubber stamp, ya seen one, ya seen 'em all.

Don't forget your drool bucket before you go outside now, hear?

Great comeback genius. Is it possible for you to post anything without making an insult? I know that your far-superior mind probably doesn't have time for this, but maybe you should try making a point without calling somebody a "dickweed" or telling them to go fuck themselves. It may lend a little more credibility to what you're saying...no wait, it won't, because you NEVER make a point, you only throw around insults. For the record, genius, I'm no right winger. I voted primarily for Democrats until the last election, but I'll never vote for another one for the rest of my life because people like you and Michael Moore represent that party. Intolerent, and self-rightous - you think that anybody who doesn't believe exactly as you believe is wrong and therefore should be dead. Talk about the same old broken record playing over and over. Liberals like you are a dime a dozen, and you're the reason why moderate people like me won't ever vote Democrat again.

Drool bucket? You're the one who can't write a single post without the use of the word "fuck". You know what they say, don't you: cussing shows a lack of vocabulary. Guess you're the one who needs the drool bucket.

Oh. Brother.

Next.

Michael Moore was wrong- outsourcing is good. Remember his first movie was about that?

How about calling CHarlton Heston for appearing on the graves of gunned down schoolkids for the NRA then feigning Alzheimer's when the questions got too tough to answer?

Or how about the fact that Bush cartel did 1.4 billion in bidness with the bin ladens before 9-11 and this is proof that Michael Moore is a traitor commie?

Hey barndog, that guy doesn't even deserve to have the notification of your Semper FI service.

He should be called Semper F.U. instead.
Certainly he is an exception to the rule.

Hope you can all find good times this memorial Day weekend.

Funny, I don't remember calling Michael Moore a traitor or a commie. He's a brilliant propagandist who passes his work off as non-fiction to people like you who blindly believe everything he says. If he has all of the answers, why does he have to cut and paste footage together while attempting to make it look as though the footage is continuous? Case in point: In Bowling for Columbine, did you notice that Charleton Heston is wearing two different outfits while he is debating an important point of the movie? Moore essentially puts words in the guy's mouth by doing this. But, I guess as long as Moore can make the point that guns are bad, journalistic integrity be damned.
Farenheit 9/11? That film has so many inconsistencies and half-truths, it would take the rest of the day to explain all of them to you. Even after I did, you wouldn't care - because Michael Moore's message is what you want to hear: Bush bad, Democrats good. It doesn't matter that his film couldn't pass as a documentary even by Newsweek's standards.

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9. My letter to Countdown
   
10. Jefferson's Nigerian Scams