How interesting that you have something against monkeys when you people think we "evolved" from them. I don't see anything wrong with those emails, but I'm sure the collective that follows your mindless drivel will rant and rave like the lunatics they are. Mr. Abramoff has done nothing illegal and people like you shouldn't be prejudging him. I'd love to give you a civics lesson so you would understand how American citizens vote with dollars, but I don't think you'd understand how democracy works and I don't feel like wasting my time.

UM...let's see:
Mr. Abramoff has done nothing illegal...

Uh, well then Kirk old buddy, why did he plead guilty to all those annoying felonies?

If you don't get the wrongness of racial epithets, you're probably the same kind of fool who tries to beat the train at the railroad crossing. Not too bright, but able to get away with it until the day you don't.

Well, I have to give you credit for at least trying to reply to my comment. Most liberals simply plug their ears and hit the delete key.

Perhaps you have never heard of a plea bargain. This is different from a guilty verdict. Basically someone just agrees to a small fine or other such arrangement rather than waste their time and taxpayer's dollars over a full blown court case where the only ones that win are the trial lawyers. This is why we need massive tort reform. We cannot continue to live with a system that coerces people into paying out their hard earned dollars without ever having their day in court. There are too many frivolous lawsuits in America and this Abramoff affair is a perfect example.

Regarding racism: Simply making observations about an ethnicity's weaknesses or strengths is not racism. There is a whole field of science devoted to this. I certainly hope you are not against science.

I also hope that you are not implying that I am a racist, because we have a little something called libel laws in the United States and I have sued dozens of others for libeling me.

How interesting that you have something against monkeys when you people think we "evolved" from them. A bit of a non sequitur, Kirk, my good man.
But then, logical fallacies are the point of your comment, aren't they? You do a decent job of classifying the different fallacies of winger talking points, and I for one am grateful. Your straight-face comment is a delightful send-up of the absurd deductive efforts of argumentation used by so many wingers and your examples are quite amusing!

1) Your appeal to authority with your first sentence about the monkeys! (The assumed liberals and evolution...lolololol, Kirki! What does that have to do with Jack-off's racist use of the word, after all?) Subtle!

2)The collective that follows [Jo's] "mindless drivel'...ROTFLMAO!! Kirki, U R 2 much!! Your dig at the winger effort to apply the principle of probability or causality is priceless! Pure logical fallacy and you exposed it! U Go, Kirki!

3)Your obviously false statements about Jack-off's conduct show the cognitive bias so rampant in winger thought!

I'd go on but I'm just laughing too hard!!

Kirki, U R da Clown today!!! LOLOLOLOLOLOLOL!

My, my, my, where does Karl find wingnuts like Kirk?

Love the way he puts "evolved" in quotes -- why Kirk, whatever are you implying? That because there is scientific evidence which shows that we have simian ancestors, it's okay to use a word assoicated with racism? And that follows logically, how?

And about that "civic lesson" which shows how Americans "vote with dollars"? Kirk, don't be shy -- go ahead, lay it out there for us in all its splendor. My guess: you'll be getting a few responses.

Apparently logic just isn't your strong suit; regurgitation straight from Uncle Karl is.

"when you people think we "evolved" from them."
No, we don't think we evolved from monkees. Monkees are our cousins. Using the 'evolved' the way you do suggest that you are a 'creationist.' Sorry, but evolution is a fact, not a theory. The Theory of Evolution is a scientific explanation of how evolution happened. Evolution itself is not a theory. Same as Einstien's Theory of Gravity (better known as General Relativity) explains gravity as geometry of space, and treats gravity itself as a fact. Creationism is merely a 'biblicaly'-based argument against the science of evolutionary biology. The only time it sounds romotely scientific is when it is arguing EVOLUTION. It NEVER presents a scientificaly-based pro-creation argument that stands on its on two feet. NEVER!!!! Instead we get contorted arguments about how kangaroos hopped to Australia, how evolution violates a kindergarten version of the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics, how the Great Flood laid down all the geologic record (where did all that water come from or go to I've never had explained to me), or how life is just to complex to have evolved (although viruses and bacteria do it all the time). Creationists wouldn't know science if it bit them on the butt! Finally, are you suggesting that Jack used the term 'monkees' in only the warmest terms of endearment? Did you give Clinton the benefit of the doubt before blowing off your big mouth? I'll bet you didn't. Sure, he deserves his day in court. So do the detainees in Gitmo. If any are guilty, then make them suffer the consequences. And lunatics? I've listened to rightwing radio and sorry bud, but you sound like a parrot. Give me a lesson on voting with dollars? No, you need to justify why the rich support this jackass war with their big mouths, while their own kids fail to report for duty, all the while the wallets grow fat.

Why would jacky plead guilty if he did nothing wrong?
And to Kirk: your boys are going down, down, down come November. The American people are finally waking up to the bold faced pure criminality and outright fascism of this immoral and undemocratic "administration" of thugs. RIP.

Kirk-
No, I can't (and won't) say you're a racist, because I don't know you. But I can say that as an American it disappoints me that you would so blithely give Abramoff a 'bye' on the use of a deragotory, racially-charged term such as "monkeys" when referring to anyone.

Also, if someone pleads "guilty" to felony charges, it's not just an adminstrative matter for the courts. It meant that the prosecution convinced Abramoff and his lawyers (who are pretty damn good) that they could win in open court in front of a jury of his peers. That's far from being an "innocent" man who is just pleading out to save the government a dollar or two and a couple of hours in court.

I don't understand why liberals are incapable of being civil when a conservative such as myself visits one of your sites. Just because my views differ from yours does not mean that you have to all behave like angry spoiled school children.

at February 12, 2006 05:21 PM: Your smear campaign against me has been tried at more prominent blogs than this. It doesn't work.

fbg46: Scientific evidence proves beyond a doubt that a higher intelligence designed everything on the Earth. Perhaps you have never heard of something called DNA or RNA.

I will try and give you a quick civics lesson, because I doubt you actually care. Dollars buy air time and other media forms which increase the odds that a candidate will get elected. Unless they have crappy political ads, but let's put that aside and just say the more dollars you have the more likely you are to be elected. The more you contribute to society, the more dollars you make. The more dollars you make the more dollars you can spend on candidates. This system ensures that only competent people elect competent politicians. Although I admit that I can't explain the Democratic phenomenon. I have a theory that it is election fraud.

Ray: I'm sorry. I got about a quarter of the way through your comment before I realized that you are totally insane. I'm sorry for your disease, but perhaps if you lived a more righteous life God wouldn't have punished you so.

BadGervan: I think you failed to read my follow up comment. Perhaps when you do you will realize how misguided you are.

Jo: None of us know the context of those comments. So, none of us can say whether the comments were derogatory or affectionate. I can't help but notice that you have decided to ignore everything I mentioned when I initially replied to you. I really can't make this whole non-issue any clearer than what I have laid out. I know liberals like to repeat things over and over again. Conservatives do not.

Kirk-
(1) I have no policy against allowing conservatives to come here an comment. In fact, I welcome you because it adds to the depth of discussion occasionally. I do not usually reply to comments, if I do then I do. As a rule, I do not eliminate or erase anyone's comments, which is something that can not be said for many right-wing sites that even allow comments at all.

(2) I have no personal animus towards anyone who is a "non-public figure" based on their race, creed, color, religious or political beliefs. I do however hold the current administration responsible for multiple acts criminal conduct, malfeasance and general stupidity that will plague the country we all love and many of us have served with pride, for years (decades, likely) to come. That's the reason I blog, because their actions piss me off, and this is where I can express my feelings and let my voice be heard.

Most of the commenters you have taken to task are men and women who, like me, are veterans (and maybe you are too), and who have been long-time readers of Democratic Veteran and an integral part this small community. We all feel that the country has been hijacked and not for the better by a band of incompetant, small-minded, and yes, criminal politicians and the money-men who love them, for something other than the original intent our Founding Fathers, which is a country governed by the rule of law, love of freedom, and protection of our civil liberties.

Please feel free to stop by anytime and comment all you want. Just remember that most, if not all of the folks here are going to disagree with you and express their disagreement as forcefully as you express your opinion ("I know liberals like to repeat things over and over again. Conservatives do not."). So it goes. Most if not all of the folks here might not ever agree with you, but they'd probably buy you a beer and agree to disagree without the threats of litigation or anything else.

At least I'd like to think so. But then, I'm just a liberal.

Actually, I often have long and interesting discussions with wingers (when they want to talk and not preach), and while I truly don't want to ever have a beer with the preznit, I guess in my case both the winger and the liberal can walk away from a discussion unhurt, at least in my little corner of the world. at February 12, 2006 05:21 PM: Your smear campaign against me has been tried at more prominent blogs than this. It doesn't work. 'Twas I who tried to figure out what you were you were on about, dude, and I was just having as much fun as you seemed to be (although I meant every word). And as Jo said--and I'm sure you came to this site knowing this--most of us here are liberals so no-one here is going to go [lightbulb over head], "why didn't I think of that before"? It's not as though any of us arrive at our opinions lightly.

Wow. Kirk is certainly free to believe in creationism, as we are still kind of a free country. But if there is actually "scientific evidence" available that proves a grand designer, I sure would like to see it. What DNA or RNA have to do with creationism escapes me.
Quite the "civics lesson" that you gave us there: "the more dollars you make the more dollars you can spend on candidates. This system ensures that only competent people elect competent politicians." Huh? No, Kirk - what your version of democracy ensures is rich people buying individuals to vote to further enrich the rich people - usually at huge cost to the non-rich people. This, my bush loving friend, is a lot of things, but it sure ain't democracy.
As far as election fraud, that seems to be coming more from the right wing than the left. By far ( Florida and Ohio).
You call me misguided. Cause I'm not an ultra right wing religious whack job? I am your worst enemy: college educated, Navy vet, proud progressive who is working daily to return our country to the moral high ground. That means bye-bye bush/cheney/rove - and all of their enabling sycophants. I assume that group includes you.
We shall see in November how your side does.

Jo: Most if not all of the folks here might not ever agree with you, but they'd probably buy you a beer and agree to disagree without the threats of litigation or anything else.

At least I'd like to think so. But then, I'm just a liberal.

I suppose you are threatening to sue me. So much for freedom of speech. I don't know exactly what you would sue me for, but does it matter? Our courts are so packed with liberal judges that you could probably sue me just for disagreeing with you.

Nina: Yes, I'm well aware that no liberal ever has that moment when a light bulb goes off in your head and you act on an idea that benefits all of society.

BadGervan: Rich people are rich because they gave to society. You are trying to twist things to portray rich people as people that don't work. That is disingenuous.

As far as being a Navy vet, unless you were in the Marines I'm hardly impressed. And don't try to give me any of that Navy SEAL G.I. Jane crap either. The fact is that if you were a Marine you would never describe yourself as a Navy vet. You dug your own hole on that one.

Kirk -

I'm a Marine, so was my Grandad, Father and Uncle.

I must say, you don't impress me one fucking iota.

Neither does your childish website.

The Bushbot Kirki hath spoken. OK, since the Navy isn't yer cuppa, try reading some Greenwald. Have good day, and do thank the Lord that we've got your back, cuz we'll fight like hell to save the Constitution of the United States, just so you can continue to exercise your right to free speech. It's a right I exercise too, my good man.

The fact is that if you were a Marine you would never describe yourself as a Navy vet. You dug your own hole on that one.

Erm, I must admit you're right [lightbulb flash]: if one is a veteran of the US Navy, one won't say one is a veteran of the US Army, Marine Corps or Air Force. But then, if one is a veteran of the Royal British Navy, one won't claim one is a veteran of the US Navy either. So what's your point? And GI Jane can kick yer arse.

Kirk: folks like you scare the hell out of me with your ignorance. Explains why bush is in our White House, though.
1. Exactly where did I say that I was a marine or a seal? I actually did train with the seals at Coronado Island, Ca. in 1968, but ended up in communications. I have never claimed to be anything but a Navy vet, 1968-72, CT-R branch. Many of my good buds were marines, and still are.
2. Where did I say that rich folks don't work? And what point were you trying to make?
3. I "dug my own hole on that one". Huh? By saying that I was a Navy vet, I "dug my own hole"? This makes absolutely no sense at all.
Dude, you aren't fit to sniff my jock. You rah-rah bush lovers/enablers make me sick.

or how life is just to complex to have evolved (although viruses and bacteria do it all the time)

Yes, and after thousands upon thousands of generations, they remain ... viruses and bacteria! This old canard is the evolutionists' weakest attack against Intelligent Design, since no one denies that species can adapt to conditions. But they remain the same species.

If evolution were true, after these tens of thousands of generations of bacteria, we'd see at least one evolve into something else, but it's never happened. Remember, we're only a few thousand generations removed from our alleged ancestor, australeopithicus, and look at the huge differences.

If you're going to attack ID, at least know what ID says and don't resort to the usual strawman arguments.

Kirk,

This is a serious response if you will accept it. I've been thinking a bit (at least for a liberal :P): I don't know anything about you at all, but you seem so angry and frustrated. Politics get anyone going, sure, and it can be interesting to go over issues, but maybe you should talk to someone, and not just about politics, but about other things too. If you're military go to the VA--it can be slow depending on where you are, but just work with it. If you're not military I hope you can visit with someone or a group and talk about things. We're all in this together, one way or another, and these are hard times. Take care.

Kirk, having graduated magna cum laude in BIOLOGY yes I have heard of deoxyribonucleic acid and ribonucleic acid, and have studied them in depth. As someone actually trained in science I am quite interested to know HOW science has proven quite conclusively that ID (creationism) is true. I am extremely familiar with creationists (excuse me, intelligent design) arguments, all made by born-again Christians. Perhaps that is why you won in court over the Dover controversy... Oh, you didn't!!! Even if you can get a few scientists to parrot ID, there are far, far, far more who do not. And to really hammer home my point, when it comes to life itself the opinions of anyone outside of biology really don't matter. Sorry, but science isn't a democracy, it is decided on evidence alone. Creationism (ID) has none.

bean, Life doesn't evolve constantly upward. For one, bacteria are in the Class Monera. They fill a niche and there will always be a niche for them. Let me try to explain this in terms everyone can follow. If a species of plant, animal, fungi has two groups cut off from one another (usually by geologic barrier such as mountain building or other plate tectonic action and called geographic isolation) where they no longer can share genes, mutations in the two groups genetic code changes. Over time the changes are enough that the two populations eventually become two different species. That's what Charles Darwin observed when he visited the Galapagos Island. Evolution isn't an upward progression, but merely adapting to a particular niche in a particular environment. We aren't the ultimate in life, but we are related to EVERY OTHER LIVING THING on this planet. With ALL scientific data agreeing that the Universe and Solar System are billions of years old there is plenty of time for this to occur.

"The more you contribute to society, the more dollars you make...

You can be a rich selfish bastard or a poor person giving your all in this country. The rich don't seem to die for this country. They're mainly no show on this latest war (except for profit). In my hometown of Lovilia, Iowa, 3 guys (Marvin Gordon, Darwin Gordon and James Comstock) died in Vietnam, all from low income families. The families themselves received government issued coffins, SGLI, and a flag. Remember, Kirk, this is a VETERAN website. Where/when did you serve? (I'm retired military myself. 2 years driving an US Army M60 MBT, 3 years as an USA infantryman, 9 years as an USAF F 15/F 111/A 10 crew chief, and 9 years as a USAF medic.)

This system ensures that only competent people elect competent politicians."

The XXIV (no poll tax) and XXVI (right to vote to 18 year olds) ammendment gives the right to vote to all citizens. As far as your supposed system giving us competent politicians? IT"S NOT WORKING :0)

Dipshit bean:

This is probally so far from your comprehension level - you would be spending months inside of a dictonary (used for looking up word meanings, and definitions),
but I will give you the benefit of the doubt.

The Kansas geological formation, known as the Niobrara Chalk.

I have this issue of arguing with an unarmed man. My philosophy degree prevents it.

You can read this article here:

http://pharyngula.org/index/weblog/comments/niobrara/

See you in a couple of years.

Semper Fidelis

BarnDog: That's a shame, because I'm really looking for approval from someone who calls themselves BarnDog.

Nina: Educate yourself please: http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,74946,00.html
Just in case you missed it. The Marines are under the Secretary of the Navy although the Corp does a good job of hiding that. I don't blame them.

BadGervan: I'm sorry if I hurt your feelings, but I don't consider riding out wars on cruise ships and having drunken intercourse with anything near port a military career. Maybe I'm off base here, but we have people being shot at. Listen, I may not have served in the military, but I've seen Full Metal Jacket at least a dozen times, so I think I know a little something about war.

Bean:

This is a timed, open book test: Please outline the science underlying ID in three hours. Take all the space you need. Your answer will be graded by Ray Robinson.

Kirk:

If you'll say something sensible, we'll all chip in and buy you a new "Full Metal Jacket" DVD because I'm guessing your current one is just about worn out.

"As far as being a Navy vet, unless you were in the Marines I'm hardly impressed. And don't try to give me any of that Navy SEAL G.I. Jane crap either. The fact is that if you were a Marine you would never describe yourself as a Navy vet. You dug your own hole on that one."

I'm sorry, Kirk, but if your attitude towards vets is based on which of the services one actually served in, is it alright with you if the rest of us think of you as a lightweight chickenhawk pussy for not serving at all? Surely you have some fucked-up excuse (Bush, Cheney, Delay, Limbaugh, etc have come up with some fun doozies). Here's to the DVD veterans: HOORAH! :0)

Ray: You know, I take the time to reach out to people of differing views and I get insulted by people like you. The fact that you people think that somehow serving in the armed forces makes you better qualified in military decisions is exactly why you keep losing elections. It is an elitist attitude. The fact of the matter is that we have a civilian as commander and chief and for you to denigrate civilians in the manner you just have is disgraceful. You should be ashamed.

Yeah, Kirk - you sure are "reaching out" to us. We so appreciate it. Now do us all a favor, get your gung-ho butt down to the nearest recruiting center ( I suggest the Marines, since you seem to have a hard-on for them ), and sign your sorry self up. Action speaks - words ain't shit coming from someone who has no experience.
Most on this site served their country in the military. Doesn't make us better - just better informed. That is a fact, like it or not.
Now do us all a favor and enlist - then come back and talk. Pissant.

Kirk: It was YOU who first tried to insult the Navy vet’s service, and it was you who called me insane for defending evolutionary biology, so don't give me your lectures! The Navy lost a hell of a lot of good men during the Pacific War. I will always defend science when I feel it is under attack. We won't be losing elections for much longer. It's Commander-In-Chief, not commander and chief. I know your side doesn't care about vets because your political pals dished several during the last few elections for political advantages; are raising Tricare rates for retirees (Oh, yeah!!!); are giving the troops the lowest pay raise in years, and on and on and on... then they waive the flag as though it was your/their own personal banner. You treat military service as though it is a choice on par with deciding which job to interview for. Ah, but this particular ‘job’ is the one job in America where there is no option to simply walk away. Even police officers can quit the force at any time without the same consequences that a grunt would (bluntly, a soldier might/have face(d) a firing squad). Military service can be lonely, hard on marriage, may leave you extremely tired/hot/cold, and can leave you crippled or dead. Simply put, military service is a sacrifice that deserves respect. WE BAND OF BROTHERS/SISTERS are concerned about our current brothers/sisters in arms whenever they are put into harms way. (actually, even when they're not in harms way) We demand they be treated right, that they be put into harms way ONLY as a last resort, and that those wounded not end up living a life of pain and poverty because your ilk decides that tax cuts for the no show rich (who BENEFIT more than anyone else by living in this country) are more important. Excuse me personally for getting upset when people who themselves found it convenient to dodge serving their country, grow up and expect to put in charge of the powers that puts our kids (never theirs) into harms way. I can see the College Republicans already pulling a Dick Cheney, expecting to be future rising political stars. But I guess by your logic they're rich enough to be competent, though… NOT!

BadGervan: There is more than one way to serve your country. Perhaps you are unaware that I have four yellow ribbons on my Ford Expedition. That’s back, both sides and roof in case you are wondering. I really don’t want stickers on my car because it’s brand new and might hurt the paint, but I’m willing to make this sacrifice for my country. That’s called patriotism and if the liberals had it we would have already defeated the terrorists.

Wow. You can NOT seriously believe that placing yellow ribbons on your SUV makes you a patriot. Your sacrifice is you might scratch the paint?

Sacrifice/Patriotism would be getting rid of your gas hog Ford for a more economical vehicle to help ease our dependance on foreign oil.

Sacrifice/Patriotism would be enlisting and fighting for the country and administration you so ignorantly support.

Sacrifice/Patriotism would be actually DOING something instead of rah-rah-ing. Send care packages to our military forces in Iraq and Afghanistan. They need more armor. Instead of buying more stickers, pony up some cash for kevlar.

I am having trouble believing you are really that stupid. I apologize if you actually are.

Kirk: not amusing, not loony, just messed up--poor guy. I mean it Kirk.

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